2023 Montana Elk draw unexpected outcomes

[fatlander]

That word doc I posted goes on to say that FWP will make it right (give you a tag) if the error is on their end. It’s the section immediately following the party application section.

I’d call FWP if you knew your applications were identical in every other facet besides your personal information.


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[Raghornkiller]

We are aware that the applications need to be exactly the same.We always get together when we put in.The guy I talked to at FWP said there is nothing we could have done to prevent the party from getting split up.

 

[ez_willie]

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Ffwp.mt.gov%2Fbinaries%2Fcontent%2Fassets%2Ffwp%2Fcommission%2F2021%2Foct-28%2Flicensing%2Fcomprehensive-update-of-licensing-administrative-rules%2Flicensing-rules-commission-authority_oct.docx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK

Page 12, section 12.3.160, number 5

“(5) The party establisher will create the party’s hunting districts, bonus point enrollment, outfitter preference point, and preference point enrollment for the winter party. Any member applying under different destinations will be removed from the party and entered into the drawing individually.”


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Thanks for the link, will read through later. Good chance a fair amount of parties with issues did not have everything exact I would assume, but game and fish screws up something every year too so tough to tell lol

 

[fatlander]

We are aware that the applications need to be exactly the same.We always get together when we put in.The guy I talked to at FWP said there is nothing we could have done to prevent the party from getting split up.

Get it in writing. They owe y’all a tag if you were square on your end.

Call the director if staff can’t get it sorted out. He’s a good guy, I’ve spoken with him previously.


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[tom338]

We are aware that the applications need to be exactly the same.We always get together when we put in.The guy I talked to at FWP said there is nothing we could have done to prevent the party from getting split up.

Think I would call again and see if you get a different person on the other end of the call and see if you get the same answer.

 

[Raghornkiller]

I just called them again.There is nothing we did wrong or could have done differently on the applications.I told her how stupid I think it is that a party can get split up and she said she doesn't disagree.She was told by the higher up people that it is just the way it is and they will not be helping us out in any way.According to her it is not in the regulations but it is buried somewhere if you look hard enough so I guess I'll stop complaining until next year when we go through this again.

 

[fatlander]

Call Hank. Get a response in writing citing the specific section of language that outlines it.


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[cfdjay]

If I were a single applicant with 2 points that didn't draw because someone in a party that did NOT draw got a tag instead, I'd have a serious problem with that. This is under the assumption this scenario had to have happened in some capacity.

 

[fatlander]

If I were a single applicant with 2 points that didn't draw because someone in a party that did NOT draw got a tag instead, I'd have a serious problem with that. This is under the assumption this scenario had to have happened in some capacity.

No one in a party that averaged less than two should have drawn, period. The regs say that the party’s points are averaged.

I’d be pissed if I didn’t draw at 2 yet another guy that applied with someone to average less than two did.


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[cfdjay]

No one in a party that averaged less than two should have drawn, period. The regs say that the party’s points are averaged.

I’d be pissed if I didn’t draw at 2 yet another guy that applied with someone to average less than two did.


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Correct. However people in the party drew...after not drawing. Potentially over people who applied as a single with the same points and didn't draw. You basically gave those people a second chance to draw.

 

[fatlander]

Correct. However people in the party drew...after not drawing. Potentially over people who applied as a single with the same points and didn't draw. You basically gave those people a second chance to draw.

Which I believe to be illegal based on everything I’ve read.

Montana sold preference points as giving the highest order of preference to those with the highest number of points.

Montana sold party application as an average of the party’s collective points. No one in the party has their own points once the draw begins, they all have the whatever the collective average is.

Montana kept 20% of the proceeds from released tags.

Finally, Montana awarded tags to individuals who collectively had less preference points than others.

That’s illegal based on everything I could find.

A further question I’ve pondered; how many outfitted clients with two points didn’t draw? The speculative cynic side of me thinks that’s got to play at least a part of the foolery we’re dealing with.


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[cfdjay]

Which I believe to be illegal based on everything I’ve read.

Montana sold preference points as giving the highest order of preference to those with the highest number of points.

Montana sold party application as an average of the party’s collective points. No one in the party has their own points once the draw begins, they all have the whatever the collective average is.

Montana kept 20% of the proceeds from released tags.

Finally, Montana awarded tags to individuals who collectively had less preference points than others.

That’s illegal based on everything I could find.

A further question I’ve pondered; how many outfitted clients with two points didn’t draw? The speculative cynic side of me thinks that’s got to play at least a part of the foolery we’re dealing with.


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Couldn’t agree more.


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[wind gypsy]

Get it in writing. They owe y’all a tag if you were square on your end.

Call the director if staff can’t get it sorted out. He’s a good guy, I’ve spoken with him previously.

Super guy. Loves to give out more tags than the #'s FWP claims they cap them at.

 

[wind gypsy]

A further question I’ve pondered; how many outfitted clients with two points didn’t draw? The speculative cynic side of me thinks that’s got to play at least a part of the foolery we’re dealing with.

Not sure i'm following. Are you saying they may have desired to give non-outfitted party app'ers with 2 points personally but less as a party average an equal chance for a returned tag as outfitted hunters with 2pp?

 

[204guy]

There are so many good examples to use of govt incompetence. Personally I like to use MT’s NR draw as an example.

 

[fatlander]

Not sure i'm following. Are you saying they may have desired to give non-outfitted party app'ers with 2 points personally but less as a party average an equal chance for a returned tag as outfitted hunters with 2pp?

Not at all.

I think that everyone with an outfitter point drew. Something funky happened, maybe because of that, and parties were split up after part of the draw was already conducted.

FWP is saying tough because they don’t want Pandora’s box opening up.


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[Dos Perros]

They are opening themselves up to a lawsuit, IMO.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Don’t worry guys, I’m sure they have legislation pre written to “fix” nonresident party apps… Pay no attention to the fact it probably reduces NR DIY allocation in exchange for more tags for outfitters and NR landowners as well.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Get it in writing. They owe y’all a tag if you were square on your end.

Call the director if staff can’t get it sorted out. He’s a good guy, I’ve spoken with him previously.


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I’d agree. He called me personally when I had an issue with my refund last year and got it taken care of within the week.

I’d at least give him an opportunity to make it right. It’s worth a shot at least.

 

[stank.243]

I will be curious to see the draw stats when they are released. I know of a couple people that did not draw permits on first choice that, until this year, have always had hundreds go to 2nd choice and sometimes 3rd choice.