1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Formidilosus]

Sorry to be also behind in the news. I’m trying to catch up. Not to parse your words, but does “at this point” meaning based on the information known so far but possibly to change with more info? Or are you less optimistic?

Unless someone comes out with replacements parts that solve the issues WITH lots of open testing…. Not optimistic.

The Sig P320 was interesting to me because you could get it with a thumb safety and then the Brouwer M1811 grip module which made it as close to a $700 1911 in 9mm that was available. With those it was a very shootable pistol as far as striker fired guns go.
However, now that getting a 9mm 1911 or 2011 that works isn’t hard, and combined with the P320 issues- I just don’t see the advantage to the gun.

 

[fwafwow]

Unless someone comes out with replacements parts that solve the issues WITH lots of open testing…. Not optimistic.

The Sig P320 was interesting to me because you could get it with a thumb safety and then the Brouwer M1811 grip module which made it as close to a $700 1911 in 9mm that was available. With those it was a very shootable pistol as far as striker fired guns go.
However, now that getting a 9mm 1911 or 2011 that works isn’t hard, and combined with the P320 issues- I just don’t see the advantage to the gun.

Gotcha. I’ve got 3. I’m in the early stages of deciding whether to do anything

 

[Dobermann]

Gotcha. I’ve got 3. I’m in the early stages of deciding whether to do anything

I'm only following this casually online, but a lot has happened in just the last month or two. Some folks are reporting that some gun shops are either not buying them, or offering very low money, in light of the current issues. Some online stores have apparently stopped carrying them.

A couple of videos have been posted just this week with lists of agencies and ranges that have banned their use.

And I'm guessing you've now seen this latest incident?: https://apnews.com/article/airman-death-sig-sauer-m18-pause-39660361f6bdff4482020293acb79805

Also worth tracking down their online response from a few weeks ago, where they suggested something along the lines that the questions being raised about the P320 were by people who were anti-gun, despite them actually being raised by people in service, law enforcement, and pro-gun circles.

Beyond the platform itself, Sig (USA)'s handling of the issue has been enough for me to not want to support them as a company.

 

[fwafwow]

Thank you. (OP - sorry for the continued tangent. I've considered a separate P320 post, but I am trying to avoid what I'm seeing elsewhere and described in the next paragraph.)

I had been aware, largely due to very light participation on Sigtalk, of the P320 issues over the years. The increased activity has piqued my interest. It's tough to wade through the info on that forum (at least for me), as it seems most posts fall into either staunch defenders or absolute haters. (I'm not throwing stones at that forum - it reminds me of some of the RS debates.)

I'm only following this casually online, but a lot has happened in just the last month or two. Some folks are reporting that some gun shops are either not buying them, or offering very low money, in light of the current issues. Some online stores have apparently stopped carrying them.

I did a quick gun.deals search and still found at least the WCP320 available, and selling for more than I paid for mine. (I very rarely sell guns, so I wouldn't be terribly worried if that wasn't the case.)

A couple of videos have been posted just this week with lists of agencies and ranges that have banned their use.

I am trying my best to avoid any of the videos that are influencer created. I have seen those headlines (although I doubt those are what you are referencing).

And I'm guessing you've now seen this latest incident?: https://apnews.com/article/airman-death-sig-sauer-m18-pause-39660361f6bdff4482020293acb79805

Yep

Also worth tracking down their online response from a few weeks ago, where they suggested something along the lines that the questions being raised about the P320 were by people who were anti-gun, despite them actually being raised by people in service, law enforcement, and pro-gun circles.

Beyond the platform itself, Sig (USA)'s handling of the issue has been enough for me to not want to support them as a company.

I know many won't use or hate FB, but I found this recent video by Bruce Gray at GrayGuns. He acknowledges he has a dog in the fight, and that video is just a prologue of other videos, but he says they were only able to replicate a UD in one narrow scenario involving a modified pistol.

For those interested, here is the Sig online response @Dobermann referenced.

I'd like to think that I'm neutral on this topic. Yes, I've got a few of the P320s, and more other Sigs, but if the P320 really isn't safe, I will make changes for those.

 

[Fatcamp]

I stopped at Scheels two days ago and they had a variety of new and used 320s of all calibers for sale. And they certainly were still full price.

Honestly though, they push Sig very hard. Every time I go to look at pistols one way or another the conversation turns to how Sig is just the best option. That in and of itself makes me suspicious because they are obviously being told to or incetivised somehow to hard sell them. Much like Vortex in years past, or maybe today, IDK because I don't talk to Scheels people about optics any longer.

 

[Reddish]

I stopped at Scheels two days ago and they had a variety of new and used 320s of all calibers for sale. And they certainly were still full price.

Honestly though, they push Sig very hard. Every time I go to look at pistols one way or another the conversation turns to how Sig is just the best option. That in and of itself makes me suspicious because they are obviously being told to or incetivised somehow to hard sell them. Much like Vortex in years past, or maybe today, IDK because I don't talk to Scheels people about optics any longer.

A friend used to work at Scheels and SIG has a very aggressive insentive program to get counter guys or gun shops to sell their products.

 

[fwafwow]

Update - I'm not selling my 320s (at least not yet), but I'm putting them in condition 3 and may no longer carry them, as I would have to change my training to carry in that condition.

New rabbit holes (I need something to spend time on):

• I'm revisiting the Staccato, and maybe the Oracle Arms 2311 (especially since I have lots of P320 mags)
• One gun theory -
  • Go with one of my other hammer-fired Sigs and just have multiples of those?
  • Go with the 2011 model and get rid of all of my other pistols?

 

[Bluumoon]

Update - I'm not selling my 320s (at least not yet), but I'm putting them in condition 3 and may no longer carry them, as I would have to change my training to carry in that condition.

New rabbit holes (I need something to spend time on):

• I'm revisiting the Staccato, and maybe the Oracle Arms 2311 (especially since I have lots of P320 mags)
• One gun theory -
  • Go with one of my other hammer-fired Sigs and just have multiples of those?
  • Go with the 2011 model and get rid of all of my other pistols?

You should pick up a platypus 2011 (glock mags) and test it for all of us. No idea if the Platypus are gtg or garbage.

 

[RockAndSage]

One gun theory -

• Go with one of my other hammer-fired Sigs and just have multiples of those?
• Go with the 2011 model and get rid of all of my other pistols?

Given you're framing these possibilities as questions...

There's a lot to be said for buying the absolute best you can afford, and not worrying about magazine compatibility or other legacy issues. Since you also framed that as "One gun theory", it also wouldn't make much sense to plan on having multiple hammer-fired Sigs, as one will pretty much last forever. If your goal is to absolutely maximize your capability as an on-demand shooter, with one supremely reliable and high-performance all-around handgun, just go with the best and don't let anything get in the way.

Form's various commentaries on the Staccatos - the newest Model C in particular - really make it hard to argue for anything else as part of a one-gun solution. His points about its reliability especially were eye-opening, in saying they've reached Glock-level reliability, and that he's shooting ~50k+ rounds per year out of his own Staccato without any hiccups. The only thing at all that is an asterisk is its proprietary mags, but they were designed as a reliability improvement and to decrease the size of the grip, so it looks win-win on that front.

There just aren't many options out there that have that level of reliability, especially combined with the high-performance shootability of a 1911, high-cap mags, and having been out there long enough to be proven durable. Especially for something that would also be an EDC/concealed carry gun. Anything else that comes close, like the Dan Wesson DWX Compact or Wilson's EDC X9 series, all seem to come with an asterisk or two, between things like form-factor for all-around, or teething problems with things like optics mounting or finish, or bigger issues like holster selection or parts availability, etc.

All told, it seems to me that the Staccato C would be the way to go. Just pick up plenty of mags with it at purchase, and don't look back.

 

[fwafwow]

Given you're framing these possibilities as questions...

Thanks - I did open it up, so I welcome the feedback. I should probably create a new thread though (after I check to see if I've already done that - the first/most recent time I started down this path).

There's a lot to be said for buying the absolute best you can afford, and not worrying about magazine compatibility or other legacy issues. Since you also framed that as "One gun theory", it also wouldn't make much sense to plan on having multiple hammer-fired Sigs, as one will pretty much last forever.

I should clarify my "one gun" concept is one *model* - but perhaps several of the same.

If your goal is to absolutely maximize your capability as an on-demand shooter, with one supremely reliable and high-performance all-around handgun, just go with the best and don't let anything get in the way.

Form's various commentaries on the Staccatos - the newest Model C in particular - really make it hard to argue for anything else as part of a one-gun solution. His points about its reliability especially were eye-opening, in saying they've reached Glock-level reliability, and that he's shooting ~50k+ rounds per year out of his own Staccato without any hiccups. The only thing at all that is an asterisk is its proprietary mags, but they were designed as a reliability improvement and to decrease the size of the grip, so it looks win-win on that front.

There just aren't many options out there that have that level of reliability, especially combined with the high-performance shootability of a 1911, high-cap mags, and having been out there long enough to be proven durable. Especially for something that would also be an EDC/concealed carry gun. Anything else that comes close, like the Dan Wesson DWX Compact or Wilson's EDC X9 series, all seem to come with an asterisk or two, between things like form-factor for all-around, or teething problems with things like optics mounting or finish, or bigger issues like holster selection or parts availability, etc.

All told, it seems to me that the Staccato C would be the way to go. Just pick up plenty of mags with it at purchase, and don't look back.

I'm with you on all of the above. The OA 2311 does take P320 mags, and appears to be slightly smaller, but the grip difference caught my attention. And magazine savings seems a minor point overall, especially since the 2311 is relatively new. But I do have a friend who knows one of the owners. (or the owner), which is how I was prompted to look at them.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks - I did open it up, so I welcome the feedback. I should probably create a new thread though (after I check to see if I've already done that - the first/most recent time I started down this path).

I should clarify my "one gun" concept is one *model* - but perhaps several of the same.

I'm with you on all of the above. The OA 2311 does take P320 mags, and appears to be slightly smaller, but the grip difference caught my attention. And magazine savings seems a minor point overall, especially since the 2311 is relatively new. But I do have a friend who knows one of the owners. (or the owner), which is how I was prompted to look at them.

The 2311 grip shape/size sucks. A standard Staccato/2011 grip is better. The Staccato C and CS are overall the best carry/duty/everything factory pistols on the market.

If you get a Staccato C or CS, use it, ask me any questions you like, and if after giving it a full on serious training time decide you don’t like it- I’ll buy it from you.

 

[NSI]

The 2311 grip shape/size sucks. A standard Staccato/2011 grip is better. The Staccato C and CS are overall the best carry/duty/everything factory pistols on the market.

If you get a Staccato C or CS, use it, ask me any questions you like, and if after giving it a full on serious training time decide you don’t like it- I’ll buy it from you.

Currently prevaricating over a C or HD4.5 for “everything.”

-J

 

[fwafwow]

Currently prevaricating over a C or HD4.5 for “everything.”

-J

I was just starting to consider the HDP4 or HD P4.5 but I am not sure I like the rear sight and the Glock mags.

 

[NSI]

I was just starting to consider the HDP4 or HD P4.5 but I am not sure I like the rear sight and the Glock mags.

The mec gar metal Glock mags it ships with are good to go. The forward mounted HD rear sight is a backup, it’s useful for making sure your dot hasn’t shifted, and it’s theoretically a better surface off of which to rack the pistol than the optic. If you’re not mounting an optic, you’d probably not be looking at the HD anyway.

-J

 

[Fatcamp]

The 2311 grip shape/size sucks. A standard Staccato/2011 grip is better. The Staccato C and CS are overall the best carry/duty/everything factory pistols on the market.

If you get a Staccato C or CS, use it, ask me any questions you like, and if after giving it a full on serious training time decide you don’t like it- I’ll buy it from you.

What about the initial single stack C? Any thoughts on them?

 

[NSI]

What’s the roll trigger kit of choice? Or do we have someone like KC Crawford or Doug Hall do it?

-J

 

[Formidilosus]

Currently prevaricating over a C or HD4.5 for “everything.”

-J

The HD is blocky and square like a Glock. A very good “not Glock” Glock duty pistol. But, given a choice the grip of the C and CS are much better shaped- thinner side to side than front to back.

 

[Formidilosus]

What about the initial single stack C? Any thoughts on them?

Very good pistols. If they still made them, they would be the answer for a production CCW pistol.

 

[Formidilosus]

What’s the roll trigger kit of choice? Or do we have someone like KC Crawford or Doug Hall do it?

-J

KC Customs.

 

[eric1115]

@Formidilosus @RockAndSage

So this has been danced around and good input given, but to put a fine point on it -

Say a guy was looking for a first pistol and looking at a G19 because everyone says that's the standard for a do everything gun. He wants it for carry (probably appendix), bears/woods, and will put it on the nightstand at the end of the day. He wants to spend G19ish money ($500-600).

What would you steer him towards? That guy was me about 5 years ago and I went G48 (slim grip/profile was very appealing, and 15 round shield mags sounded great. I've gone back to the factory 10-rounders). Thinking of changing to a 1911, and a single stack commander size Tisas (with Wilson extractor and maybe some trigger work?) seems like the way to go.

I've been dot-curious, but never really felt like the Ameriglo sights on my G48 were holding me back more than my lack of skill. Getting my slide milled and buying a dot has always felt like a much smaller improvement than I'd get from buying another couple thousand rounds and just shooting the damn thing. Do I get one that's dot-ready? How about a rail for a light? I always always have a streamlight 500 lumen clipped in my pocket, but I suck at shooting strong hand only even more than I do with two hands. I'm not crazy about the increased size and weight of a cool-guy light and dot equipped pistol (especially with the weight gain of going from a G48 to a 1911). I've spent a little time with dot equipped pistols, but it has mostly been just plinking. I could see how they would need lots of training under stress, otherwise they are not the silver bullet lots of guys say they are in a time/stress pressure situation. With time, pretty sweet.

What would you recommend a guy do if he didn't want to get sucked too far in, wanted one do-it-all pistol that just works and shoots well, and didn't care about cool-guy points (what the G19 is often thought to be)? Wants to shoot 1k-2k rounds a year, but no aspirations of ever being a truly good shooter?