1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

FWIW - According to the interwebs - The unintended discharge issue was able to be replicated by an independent researcher that found that in their experiments, it was a certain combination of faulty parts (wrong take down lever from a different caliber (40 cal or 45 i think?) and some of the MIM parts) they were able to get a 320 to fire without pulling the trigger consistently and repeatably.

I personally have tried my damndest to get mine to release the striker by dropping it and smacking the crap out of it with a rubber mallet at all angles... all to no avail. I guess I got a good one?? lol Mine was also sent in for the recall a few years back.


Ya, that was my understanding as well. Seems a stretch but man has it turned into an issue.
 

It may be an issue, it may not. I personally wouldn’t carry one loaded, but if someone wants to no worries here.
 
Ya, that was my understanding as well. Seems a stretch but man has it turned into an issue.
If this research pinpoints the problem then the issue is the "interchangeability" of the parts/platform itself. They and we are victims of their own ingenuity. If you put a gun together incorrectly one would hope it should cease to function at all... But in the 320's case it "alters" the function in a very dangerous way.
 
FWIW - According to the interwebs - The unintended discharge issue was able to be replicated by an independent researcher that found that in their experiments, it was a certain combination of faulty parts (wrong take down lever from a different caliber (40 cal or 45 i think?) and some of the MIM parts) they were able to get a 320 to fire without pulling the trigger consistently and repeatably.

I personally have tried my damndest to get mine to release the striker by dropping it and smacking the crap out of it with a rubber mallet at all angles... all to no avail. I guess I got a good one?? lol Mine was also sent in for the recall a few years back.
I would think that this would also be apparent in the pistols purported to have fired on their own (??). Seems like it would be pretty easy to confirm, especially on a pistol purported to have such and issue. I'd think the issue would be repeatable on said pistol and the problem would be observable, but it hasn't seemed to be (??)
 
I would think that this would also be apparent in the pistols purported to have fired on their own (??). Seems like it would be pretty easy to confirm, especially on a pistol purported to have such and issue. I'd think the issue would be repeatable on said pistol and the problem would be observable, but it hasn't seemed to be (??)
That HAS been a bit of a boogeyman here! But I'm unaware how much testing on those guns was actually done and if the findings were made public knowledge. I know SIG was able to repeat it in earlier versions of the gun (hence the recall). It IS worth noting that it took an independent researcher to be transparent about their findings with the general public tho! Another thing of note is that is seems a VAST majority of these claims are 2018 and after. I got my 320 in late 2015 or early 2016 and sent it in for the recall. It seems that there were very few of that era that had any issues at all.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread!!
 
Where does slide to frame fit rank in importance?

It’s a feel thing only. No real effect on precision.
Form: I'm interested to hear more about this, and about your thoughts about this project in general, as well as the idea of buying an entry-level 1911 to 'tweak' vs simply buying something more mid-tier.

Part of the relevant context for me is that, on the basis of the 9mm thread and this one, I was prompted to pick up a Bul Armory EDC 5" 1911 in 9mm. Not sure of the US retail there, but the local price here was about US$1800.

The fit and finish seem fine, and the slide cycles smoothly. Slide to frame fit seems tight. Trigger is fairly tight, and has about 2mm of take up before what feels to me like a crisp break. Safety is smooth, easy to engage and disengage, and crisply clicks on and off.

'Pointability' was just as you describe - almost intuitive, and all first rounds went on target without either sighting in or familarising myself to the platform. Bill Drills were as fast on first use as pistols that I'm more familiar with.

Overall, it was pleasant to shoot, and your case for the grip and thumb safety is starting to make a lot of sense to me - I also went back and re-read some of Mas Ayoob making similar observations / recommendations.

However, despite there not being anything specifically 'wrong' with the pistol, compared to DA/SAs I've used (CZ 85 Combat, Shadow 2, and P-07s), something overall still feels fairly chunky and almost 'agricultural', about the Bul. Given that it's my first 1911, I don't know if this is just that it's an 'entry-to-mid-tier' offering, or is just part of the old-school 1911 design and construction.

Anyway, yesterday I was able to take a look at a Tanfoglio Witness Custom, also 5" in 9mm, for comparison. I understand that, as with some other 1911s, their frames are made by Armscor in the Phillipines, and they're then finished in Italy.

Compared to the Bul: the Tanfog was the equivalent of about US$750 in local currency, or nearly one-third the cost of the Bul. The slide was sloppy, and not as smooth cycling. The trigger has a lot of space above it at the top (a known issue from the very little I've been able to find online), and wiggled from side to side so much that I couldn't see how one could make clean trigger presses or accurate shots with it. The thumb safety needed a lot of effort to engage or disengage - it was clunky, stiff, and nowhere near as refined as anything else I've handled.

Given this particular pistol is currently on sale and discounted by about 40%, I'd initially been curious to purchase it to use as a 'host' platform and see where it would get to with modifications - similar to your Girsan project, but hopefully with a better beginning point. (And I admit that I was probably being a bit snobby about not wanting to try a Tisas, and assumed that the Tanfog would be better quality, being Italian.)

But having handled it, I was already thinking I'd need to replace the safety, trigger, and possibly bushing, in addition to the extractor. The dealer agreed.

So at that point, I was left wondering: if that's what it would take to get to a point of better handling, but still a loose frame, even if assuming accuracy was good, and I was then in for about US$1000 all up, is that worth it?

I know this is not a fair comparison, as the retail prices will be far different in the US, and we don't have as much access to other 1911s here (mostly just Bul, Ruger, Tisas, and Tanfog).

Also aware that this is a bit of a 'value is in the eye of the beholder' situation. But I guess I'm wondering overall - if it takes a lot of effort to get to an 'okay' outcome for, say, half the cost, is there any value in that compared to just going with something known to work out of the box but for double the cost? I know above you said you'd be happy to carry the modified Girsan - but I'm guessing that, given the choice, you'd go with something higher-end and more proven?

Of course, in my specific case, I already have the Bul, so the Tanfog would be more an exercise in learning what it takes to get something up to speed, and the outcome would be something I think I'd still regard as a 'beater' gun, whereas the Bul, while clearly not a Nighthawk, Wilson, etc, is perfectly serviceable for my needs.

Not sure if any of that makes sense; interested in any reflections you might have. Cheers!
 
What aftermarket sights with fiber optic front and blacked out rear are preferred? Lots of options out there. Current setup is tritium front with a huge dot, wanting something with a smaller fiber optic.
Another vote for Dawson Precision. Lots have a similar design, and I’ve tried a few, but I think Dawson executes very well, great sight picture. I think they are about the best sight you can get if you are not going with RDS.
 
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So at that point, I was left wondering: if that's what it would take to get to a point of better handling, but still a loose frame, even if assuming accuracy was good, and I was then in for about US$100 all up, is that worth it?

I know this is not a fair comparison, as the retail prices will be far different in the US, and we don't have as much access to other 1911s here (mostly just Bul, Ruger, Tisas, and Tanfog).

Also aware that this is a bit of a 'value is in the eye of the beholder' situation. But I guess I'm wondering overall - if it takes a lot of effort to get to an 'okay' outcome for, say, half the cost, is there any value in that compared to just going with something known to work out of the box but for double the cost? I know above you said you'd be happy to carry the modified Girsan - but I'm guessing that, given the choice, you'd go with something higher-end and more proven?

If someone has the money, it is generally better to just get the “right” thing from the start.


Of course, in my specific case, I already have the Bul, so the Tanfog would be more an exercise in learning what it takes to get something up to speed, and the outcome would be something I think I'd still regard as a 'beater' gun, whereas the Bul, while clearly not a Nighthawk, Wilson, etc, is perfectly serviceable for my needs.

That would be a good use too. Learning what makes them tick is a good thing.


Also- have you tried different grips on your Bul? That is the only thing I can think of that would make it feel bulky.
 
If someone has the money, it is generally better to just get the “right” thing from the start.




That would be a good use too. Learning what makes them tick is a good thing.


Also- have you tried different grips on your Bul? That is the only thing I can think of that would make it feel bulky.
Thanks so much Form. For my budget and initial application, I think the 'right' thing from the start in this case was the Bul - which, to clarify, I'm happy with overall. Will try some thin grips to see what difference that makes.

As for a 'project' platform, I grabbed a Tisas, as I just couldn't get past how bad the Tanfoglio felt, and had a use case for another gun.

So ... next question: for something like a Tisas:

1. What would you replace immediately to ensure good basic functionality?

2. What would you add to that to take it from 'not zero, but to hero' - aiming to improve both accuracy and reliability from the get go?

While I'm guessing that you personally would do 1, shoot it a bit, before assessing 2. But as someone new to 1911s, as I 'don't know what I don't know', I'm thinking there's a case for just replacing the most important parts to get it up to speed out the gate.

In that case, I'm assuming 1 is the Wilson Bulletproof Extractor, and mags that work. Anything else for you - or anything worth asking the dealer's resident gunsmith to look at?

And for 2, I'm seeing wildly diverse opinions on forums, but the list seems to commonly be:
  • extractor
  • trigger
  • plunger safety spring (if safety not great)
  • quality recoil spring
  • possibly a firing pin.
Thoughts?

And thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole ... I'm enjoying shooting the Bul, and really like the 1911 platform a lot.
 
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1. What would you replace immediately to ensure good basic functionality?

2. What would you add to that to take it from 'not zero, but to hero' - aiming to improve both accuracy and reliability from the get go?


Generally speaking...in improving basic functionality in 1911s, the two most important things you can do for an otherwise functioning example are good magazines, and good lubrication. That's literally about 90% of what you need to know to keep most 1911s running, until you start wearing out your recoil spring at around 3k-5k rounds.

Always number your magazines, and keep note of which mag you were using when a malfunction occurs - it sneaks up on you, and quite often mystery malfunctions can be traced to an individual mag. And more often than not, that mag will not look like there's anything wrong with it at all. Try to keep at least 5 mags in rotation for practice, and a couple that you've proven and reserve only for carry/defense, including proving them with your chosen defensive ammo. It matters.

With lubrication, be sure to hit all the bearing/friction surfaces - rails, locking lugs, exterior of the barrel, barrel link area, and the cocking radius at the bottom of the firing pin stop being the primary ones. Friction is cumulative in semi-autos, and every gun has its friction tipping-point where the moving parts just get slowed down enough for a malfunction to occur. Once you get a few hundred rounds on a gun, the rule is to lubricate any bit of rub-wear you find, as each little spot of it adds up. One of Gaston Glock's genius insights was to minimize the total amount of friction surface area in his designs. But with any design, as you add friction contaminants like dust, unburned powder, brass shavings, etc, you get closer to that tipping point - the less friction surface there is, the further out that tipping point typically is. 1911s have a lot, and need good lubrication to minimize the friction those contaminants can cause. "Good lubrication" meaning sufficient quantity, quality, and placement. The better you do all of this, the higher the round-count can go before you need to clean - and the more obvious it will be when an actual bit of gunsmithing or tuning is needed.
 
Thanks so much Form. For my budget and initial application, I think the 'right' thing from the start in this case was the Bul - which, to clarify, I'm happy with overall. Will try some thin grips to see what difference that makes.

As for a 'project' platform, I grabbed a Tisas, as I just couldn't get past how bad the Tanfoglio felt, and had a use case for another gun.

So ... next question: for something like a Tisas:

1. What would you replace immediately to ensure good basic functionality?

2. What would you add to that to take it from 'not zero, but to hero' - aiming to improve both accuracy and reliability from the get go?

While I'm guessing that you personally would do 1, shoot it a bit, before assessing 2. But as someone new to 1911s, as I 'don't know what I don't know', I'm thinking there's a case for just replacing the most important parts to get it up to speed out the gate.

In that case, I'm assuming 1 is the Wilson Bulletproof Extractor, and mags that work. Anything else for you - or anything worth asking the dealer's resident gunsmith to look at?

And for 2, I'm seeing wildly diverse opinions on forums, but the list seems to commonly be:
  • extractor
  • trigger
  • plunger safety spring (if safety not great)
  • quality recoil spring
  • possibly a firing pin.
Thoughts?

And thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole ... I'm enjoying shooting the Bul, and really like the 1911 platform a lot.
I got a Tisas DS9. I replaced the extractor(form had recommended this in another thread) with a Wilson combat bullet proof extractor. After I tuned the extractor, I now have 500 rounds through it without failure. I’ve done a couple other things to it but the extractor was the only thing for reliability.

Edit: screen shot is Forms take on Tisas from the thread- Most reliable and shoot able 9mm semi auto pistols- post 371
 

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What aftermarket sights with fiber optic front and blacked out rear are preferred? Lots of options out there. Current setup is tritium front with a huge dot, wanting something with a smaller fiber optic.
Dawson Precision
 

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I got a Tisas DS9. I replaced the extractor(form had recommended this in another thread) with a Wilson combat bullet proof extractor. After I tuned the extractor, I now have 500 rounds through it without failure. I’ve done a couple other things to it but the extractor was the only thing for reliability.

Edit: screen shot is Forms take on Tisas from the thread- Most reliable and shoot able 9mm semi auto pistols- post 371

I'd add the Cylinder & Slide Ultimate Extractor as one of the best alternatives to the Wilson, if you can find one - proper spring steel, twice heat-treated. As for mags, one additional option has, surprisingly, been the MecGar mags. They OEM for a lot of gun companies at this point, and all the ones I've had the last few years have been as flawless as the best of any other brand.
 
I'd add the Cylinder & Slide Ultimate Extractor as one of the best alternatives to the Wilson, if you can find one - proper spring steel, twice heat-treated. As for mags, one additional option has, surprisingly, been the MecGar mags. They OEM for a lot of gun companies at this point, and all the ones I've had the last few years have been as flawless as the best of any other brand.
Thanks! This is my first 2011 so everything is new to me.
 
Thanks so much Form. For my budget and initial application, I think the 'right' thing from the start in this case was the Bul - which, to clarify, I'm happy with overall. Will try some thin grips to see what difference that makes.

As for a 'project' platform, I grabbed a Tisas, as I just couldn't get past how bad the Tanfoglio felt, and had a use case for another gun.

So ... next question: for something like a Tisas:

1. What would you replace immediately to ensure good basic functionality?

2. What would you add to that to take it from 'not zero, but to hero' - aiming to improve both accuracy and reliability from the get go?

While I'm guessing that you personally would do 1, shoot it a bit, before assessing 2. But as someone new to 1911s, as I 'don't know what I don't know', I'm thinking there's a case for just replacing the most important parts to get it up to speed out the gate.

In that case, I'm assuming 1 is the Wilson Bulletproof Extractor, and mags that work. Anything else for you - or anything worth asking the dealer's resident gunsmith to look at?

And for 2, I'm seeing wildly diverse opinions on forums, but the list seems to commonly be:
  • extractor
  • trigger
  • plunger safety spring (if safety not great)
  • quality recoil spring
  • possibly a firing pin.
Thoughts?

And thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole ... I'm enjoying shooting the Bul, and really like the 1911 platform a lot.


I wouldn’t do anything but order a Wilson Bullet proof 9mm extractor and 2-3 of these mags-



The other mags I would look at are the Ed Brown ones, and Tripp Research. With those mags the gun may (probably will) work just fine. If it needs an extractor tweaked, there are videos of how to do so- takes 10 minutes in the range. Tune the Wilson BP extractor when it comes in and save the factory for a backup. Then shoot it. Everything else is user preference. For me they all get a GI A1 short trigger and a magwell.
 
What aftermarket sights with fiber optic front and blacked out rear are preferred? Lots of options out there. Current setup is tritium front with a huge dot, wanting something with a smaller fiber optic.

These are the sights on a prodigy. Took a lil bit for me to warm up to them. But that big sloppy u notch rear and a midsized dot up front have turned into my favorite pistol sights.

I have made the mistake of going too small on the front sight before. Even have a colt with paper sights on it and they just ruin that gun.....Gimme a big sumbitch that I dont have to look for. Sight in so POI right on top the dot so nothing is ever covered up... least thats how I like it.

1000002570.jpg
 
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