Wyoming long range hunting debate

[Q_Sertorius]

Cool story bro.

Nationally, it’s not even close. In 1982, the American hunting population peaked at 16.7 million. In 2022, there were 15.9 million hunters.

As a relative percentage of the population that hunts has gone down drastically. In 1982, 7.2% of the United States hunted. In 2022, it was 4.8%. So, yes, fewer people are hunting.

But that doesn’t mean that fewer people are hunting where you are located. From what I can glean from the Internet, many western states are crowded by nonresident hunters. Your states are seeing big dollar signs from nonresidents.

It’s true that I am from Virginia. I’ve only ever hunted in Virginia (and one deer hunt in Oklahoma and one pheasant shoot in Kansas). I am one of the many people who would like to hunt “out west” at some point in my life. What has stopped me so far is that I don’t think it would feel like hunting and I don’t want to pay fees that I think are outrageous.

The public lands in Virginia are practically deserted in my experience. In the early 1980s, it sounded like Phantom Fury out there. These days, I can hunt all day in the Jefferson National Forest and not see or hear another hunter.

So, anyway, not to sidetrack the entire discussion, but I don’t believe in increased government regulation of means and methods. I don’t think it will solve “the problems.”


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[S.Clancy]

Here is my take:

1. It's stupid to bring ethics into it. I completely understand that for some people (not very many) an 800-1000 yard shot is like me shooting 300-400 yards.

2. I believe the fair chase argument has merit. Consider that if someone can shoot 600 yards they can effectively shoot 35-40% of a square mile of area.... I also think there is merit in the argument that beyond a certain range animals have an extremely (or 0) chance of detection of the hunter regardless of wind, sight, etc.

3. I ABSOLUTELY think legislators would F this up

4. I think the answer is increasing primitive weapon seasons (muzzy, archery only, open site rifle)

 

[Lou270]

When I first started getting into hunting the “in the know” said you needed a big magnum instead of a 270 or 30-06 because your only shot may be at a “going away animal at last light.” The more power made it possible… Now you need a modern cartridge with super high BC and dialing scope instead of a 270 or 30-06 because “you can’t get any closer.” for your only shot. The new technology makes it possible… The reality is both are utter and total BS and poor shots. The funny thing is you get on sites like RS and the naive think they are pioneering something new, but doing the same dumb rationalizing that was always there. That said I am not advocating legislating anything. I hope the “experts” who advocate poor shots will take notice they are pushing down a path that will lead to more laws, but I doubt their egos can handle it

Lou

 

[LongWayAround]

I believe its fairly documented that nationally numbers are falling while popularity of "western" public land hunting is increased. Which isn't surprising when you think about all the land in the east that much is private but historically Farmer John didn't care who hunted his land or such. Now either Farmer John doesn't allow hunting, its leased out OR Framer John's fields are now subdivisions.

Sure. But nationally also has little relevance to the western states where something like this is even possible. Maybe 1/3 of the country would fall into the region of relevance.

 

[solarshooter]

I would support limitations on scope magnification. Mandatory training/certification is a slippery slope because it can be abused to restrict access. In theory, if executed well and fairly, I support the concept. I agree regulating range directly would be almost impossible to actually implement.

In my opinion Rokslide is one of the most "progressive" communities of hunters - the popular sentiment here is generally fact and evidence based, and people are willing to admit their limitations and honestly test and evaluate themselves. However, I still think there is a perception here that shooting beyond 5-600yds and maintaining a high cold bore hit rate, let's say >50%, is a SKILL that can be LEARNED. Unfortunately this is simply not the case. Random dispersion cannot be "learned", nor can it be accounted for. Your cold bore hit rates in hunting scenarios, in objective terms, will NEVER be at an "ethical" threshold above about 500yds.

 

[PathFinder]

why even optics, just cancel firearms, why not just Archery or Cross bow under 60lbs

Because the objective isn't to keep firearms out of hunting. The objective is to limit technology enough to be able to keep opportunity high while maintaining quality and numbers. It's worth adding that I don't think this needs to apply to all species.

 

[voltage]

I took Hunter's Education in 2004. I vividly remember an instructor that said if anyone tells you they shot a deer at 400 yards, they are lying. I wonder what that fella is up to these days.

 

[wind gypsy]

Nationally, it’s not even close. In 1982, the American hunting population peaked at 16.7 million. In 2022, there were 15.9 million hunters.

As a relative percentage of the population that hunts has gone down drastically. In 1982, 7.2% of the United States hunted. In 2022, it was 4.8%. So, yes, fewer people are hunting.

But that doesn’t mean that fewer people are hunting where you are located. From what I can glean from the Internet, many western states are crowded by nonresident hunters. Your states are seeing big dollar signs from nonresidents.

It’s true that I am from Virginia. I’ve only ever hunted in Virginia (and one deer hunt in Oklahoma and one pheasant shoot in Kansas). I am one of the many people who would like to hunt “out west” at some point in my life. What has stopped me so far is that I don’t think it would feel like hunting and I don’t want to pay fees that I think are outrageous.

The public lands in Virginia are practically deserted in my experience. In the early 1980s, it sounded like Phantom Fury out there. These days, I can hunt all day in the Jefferson National Forest and not see or hear another hunter.

So, anyway, not to sidetrack the entire discussion, but I don’t believe in increased government regulation of means and methods. I don’t think it will solve “the problems.”

This is about discussions in WY and you seem fairly disconnected from what hunting is like there.

If a guy doesn't pay his way to success, have a special tag, or a good rifle pronghorn tag, I'd think a WY hunt is "going to feel like hunting".

 

[Lawnboi]

I don’t see any meaningful implication on hunting by limiting anything , even if it were made 100% archery only.

Access and habitat are the issues. They don’t make the state or hunting industry money though.

 

[fatlander]

We need to have a reckoning with technology or opportunity will continue to be lost.

We’re too effective across all aspects of hunting.

Here’s a few things that have happened or at least gained popularity in the last 10 years that I think are wholly detrimental and should be talked about, and possibly legislatively banned or at least limited:

TSS for waterfowl and turkeys
Hyper realistic decoys and fanning for turkeys
Range finding binos that blue tooth to scopes for big game
Turret scopes
Modern compound archery equipment
Able body people shooting crossbows during archery season
Cell cameras
E-bikes

All of this stuff has made us leagues more effective at killing and pressuring game than ever before.

If all of that stuff was outlawed tomorrow, I’d find a way, and so would many others. The game would benefit, state coffers and the hunting industry wouldn’t.


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[Q_Sertorius]

Decreasing killing ability is not the answer.

People posted horrific stats above about wounding rates. As high as 30% in some states. Wounded animals are almost always going to die more quickly than they would naturally.

Archers are absolutely notorious for wounding animals, even though many are more conscientious about training and practice than the average rifle hunter.

Hunters need all the help they can get to ensure recovery.

The goal, ultimately, is to manage the wildlife resources efficiently. That is easier if know how many animals are actually killed, not just recovered.

I would be just fine if getting a public land hunting permit required proof of competency with a hunting rifle.

I just can’t believe that the same people who bitch about incompetent state government want more state regulation.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Mattman215]

I think the real issue is simply too many people out hunting and not enough animals and space. Western states like WY are getting worse and worse to try and get any quality tags regardless of weapon used.

Some of the things I have seen I think are more ethics based on individual hunters vs technology. I have seen someone run up next to me and rush a 1450 yard shot, with 6.5creedmoor at a 3x3 elk. They missed 7 times than ran back to their truck. This behavior is now common, I think we all have these stories.

Not sure what the fix is, I often joke if atvs and utvs were banned and all areas were wilderness hunting would be amazing, until I got old.

Not sure what the fix is but I sure feel the pressure out west every year. However with archery season it is equally as busy and chaotic so I do not personally think people shooting far is the issue it’s simply the sheer number of people. the fact every tag comes with an entourage of 5-7 buddies running all over the mountains helps it get busy fast.

 

[fatlander]

Decreasing killing ability is not the answer.

People posted horrific stats above about wounding rates. As high as 30% in some states. Wounded animals are almost always going to die more quickly than they would naturally.

Archers are absolutely notorious for wounding animals, even though many are more conscientious about training and practice than the average rifle hunter.

Hunters need all the help they can get to ensure recovery.

The goal, ultimately, is to manage the wildlife resources efficiently. That is easier if know how many animals are actually killed, not just recovered.

I would be just fine if getting a public land hunting permit required proof of competency with a hunting rifle.

I just can’t believe that the same people who bitch about incompetent state government want more state regulation.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

That’s a pipe dream.

Killing is easier than it’s ever been and people still suck. Because people suck, most government programs suck.

It’s time we make hunting, as a whole, hard again. If people quit, good. Access has never been harder and demand for tags have never been higher.


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[Lou270]

We need to have a reckoning with technology or opportunity will continue to be lost.

We’re too effective across all aspects of hunting.

Here’s a few things that have happened or at least gained popularity in the last 10 years that I think are wholly detrimental and should be talked about, and possibly legislatively banned or at least limited:

TSS for waterfowl and turkeys
Hyper realistic decoys and fanning for turkeys
Range finding binos that blue tooth to scopes for big game
Turret scopes
Modern compound archery equipment
Able body people shooting crossbows during archery season
Cell cameras
E-bikes

All of this stuff has made us leagues more effective at killing and pressuring game than ever before.

If all of that stuff was outlawed tomorrow, I’d find a way, and so would many others. The game would benefit, state coffers and the hunting industry wouldn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This. I’m not that old but when I started hunting, hunters were for most part generalists. They hunted what seasons were open and generally hunted most seasons. Now hunters are groups of specialists. Big buck Whitetail hunters, Water Fowl, Backcountry, Turkey, whatever. The group trains and thinks year round about their one speciality. A big part of this is because of access, but it is also the way the younger generations are raised. At one time you played a bunch of sports in school. Now kids play one sport and get year round / off season camps and personal coaching to get better at that one sport. Heck, even academics are the same. Times just change but the animals don’t

Lou

 

[Lawnboi]

Not sure what the fix is, I often joke if atvs and utvs were banned and all areas were wilderness hunting would be amazing, until I got old.

This would be the easiest and quickest way to improve habitat in a lot of areas. Animals require food, water and sanctuary. Get rid of half the roads whether 2 track or atv and you just created one of the three things needed to sustain a herd of animals.

Would do a hell of a lot more than hunters complaining that John shoots too far with his magnum or that Jim is a healthy adult and shoots a cross bow.

 

[SDHNTR]

That’s a pipe dream.

Killing is easier than it’s ever been and people still suck. Because people suck, most government programs suck.

It’s time we make hunting, as a whole, hard again. If people quit, good. Access has never been harder and demand for tags have never been higher.


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Amen to this! It’s all wayyyy too easy now.

Hell, 90% of the topics on this forum are about improving equipment to make it easier. Hardly anyone ever talks about true hunting skills anymore, because they are hardly needed. Newburglar tells you where to go, and Rokslide tells you how dial up the best whizbang and fill tags. Oh, and don’t forget the latest and greatest new tactical dork school to go learn how to big a bigger dork. Easier isn’t better.


I have all the latest and greatest and know how to use it too. And if I’m truly honest, I feel almost guilty when I do use it. 4-500 yards, dial, aim and dead. We need the pendulum to swing the other way. We NEED restrictions to limit hunter lethality. The animals deserve it. Our kids deserve it. Or there will be no tags left. It’s the only viable option to balance western hunting growth with future opportunity. We cannot stop human progress, but we absolutely can limit tech from making hunting too easy. Easy isn’t good when it comes to hunting.

We all need to get back to our roots. Tracking, food and water sources, bedding areas, travel routes, seasonal trends, etc. No one ever talks about these things anymore because that stuff requires hard work and boots on the ground to learn. We need more of this and less moa/mil, FFP/sfp, shooting school, Gunwerks, negative comb, CDS, bla bla bla.

Bring back the buffalo plaid and walnut.

 

[SDHNTR]

This would be the easiest and quickest way to improve habitat in a lot of areas. Animals require food, water and sanctuary. Get rid of half the roads whether 2 track or atv and you just created one of the three things needed to sustain a herd of animals.

Would do a hell of a lot more than hunters complaining that John shoots too far with his magnum or that Jim is a healthy adult and shoots a cross bow.

The most crowded hunt I’ve been on in years was last fall in the Washakie Wilderness. 17 miles in on horseback. Multiple camps in every drainage. Headlamps all over ever ridge line. Gunfire like a war zone opening morning. It couldn’t have been worse with a county road 100 yards away. And I’m not exaggerating one bit.

 

[SDHNTR]

Decreasing killing ability is not the answer.

____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Dead wrong.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Dead wrong.

Explain why you want more wounded animals.

Increased lethality is more ethical. It’s less unnecessary destruction of the resource and taking of life. There are studies suggesting that 1.4 animals are wounded for every animal taken by bow hunting. And even for rifles some studies calculate 1.3 woundings for each taking. For all the supposed lethality of our means, a lot of animals aren’t being recovered. And many of those animals won’t survive.

To me that makes a sound argument for encouraging use of more lethal means of killing AND requiring basic proficiency in shot selection, field shooting, and animal recovery. After seeing those wounding studies, I have been totally convinced on that one. I’d love it if every county in the country had a Fish and Wildlife station equivalent to the DMV where everyone wanting a hunting license had to demonstrate basic weapon safety and meet minimum accuracy standards on a public range - after completing Hunter’s education - on a regular basis.

And all the stuff about hunters needing to know the animals, terrain, etc. is true. It doesn’t matter how well you shoot if you can’t find them. The shooting ability is a necessary, but not sufficient part of the hunt.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Lawnboi]

The most crowded hunt I’ve been on in years was last fall in the Washakie Wilderness. 17 miles in on horseback. Multiple camps in every drainage. Headlamps all over ever ridge line. Gunfire like a war zone opening morning. It couldn’t have been worse with a county road 100 yards away. And I’m not exaggerating one bit.

That’s because wilderness areas are a target.

I can think of a lot more units that are grids of 2…. More like 14 track that would be a lot better off if you couldn’t drive or atv to every square mile.