Wyoming 2020 deadline

[wytx]

I agree with Buzz. Not many outfitters will take your deposit and then keep it if you don't draw, holding it for a future hunt. If you send a deposit on a specific hunt date then you'll have a contract they will not go against.
And yes, plenty of great elk hunting not in a wilderness area.

 

[Thomas11]

You don't have to pay an outfitter anything, plenty of elk outside the wilderness areas. IMO, if the outfitter is worth a damn, he wouldn't force you to send a deposit until after you draw.

There is NO way I would book a hunt with an outfitter that demanded a deposit before I drew the tag.

I’d have to agree with this. But also it seems outfitters rule the world in WY

 

[dreamingWest]

I think the good outfitters are in high demand. So the deposit gets you on their list. I'll be interested to see if these new dates has any effect on them. My guess is it won't matter.

 

[dreamingWest]

My annoyance isn't whether or not I'll draw and/or get my money back. It's floating the ~$3k through the heart of application season for no apparent reason.

 

[Dos Perros]

I told you what their belief is,and it's in an email. That's why the Jan 31 close date stayed the same. It would have been real easy to just combine the nr elk draw with the deer/antelope draw, which is what was supposed to happen. WYOGA stood up there and said NR won't apply for deer/antelope unless the Elk draw results are released first. That's why results are may 21; "there will be an increase in nr deer/antelope applications..."
WYOGA is the expert on everything NR and they've said so. And there's nobody to dispute it. Buzz and Jeff do what they can but there's no reason for them to get twisted up with nr issues with some of the flack they get on forums.

Appreciate your response, and FWIW I’m not trying to be argumentative with you directly, just with the change. I can engage in plenty of critical thinking on pretty much any subject.

I think we have here an example of unintended consequences...which should always be considered whenever you mess with something.

 

[197]

Dont forget the 2.5% credit card fee ....

Even if you use a debit card! That is what stinks, we should get the option and be able to opt out of the 2.5% fee which could add up to 100s of dollars if you apply for moose and sheep. Since I cannot buy preference points during the regular draw, do I actually have to pay the 2.5% twice then on the same money?

 

[hutty]

I used an outfitter last year in wilderness area. Sent him a $1000 deposit, with the language stating that if I did not draw your tag you can either get a refund or apply toward a hunt the following year.

 

[BuzzH]

My annoyance isn't whether or not I'll draw and/or get my money back. It's floating the ~$3k through the heart of application season for no apparent reason.

Wasn't that long ago that every State made you front the money...between my wife and I, we typically had from 5-10K floating during the application season.

 

[wapitibob]

Dos, we're good. Just relaying what I've seen and been told.

At the time of the regulation change, the dept was paying 2.3% on every card purchase, debit or credit, and $0.10 on each refund.
Sheep/Moose apps include the $150 PP fee. Or, if you want points only you'd buy them during the point only draw.
E/D/A applications do not include the PP fee, they are only available during the point only draw.

 

[dreamingWest]

True and I still play the game too. I just figured the states would converge more towards New Mexico for example, where you pay up front but are typically refunded in a month or less.

For the record, I love hunting Wyoming and have had great luck there!

Edited to add:
The real reason this has become an interest of mine, is that I have an outfitter picked out I like and want to send a deposit to, but I don't want to go alone. This forced "delay in planning" makes it a more difficult sell to my hunting buddies I'd like to go with me. So while it's a not a deal breaker, it just gives me more pause to look elsewhere.

 

[BuzzH]

Appreciate your response, and FWIW I’m not trying to be argumentative with you directly, just with the change. I can engage in plenty of critical thinking on pretty much any subject.

I think we have here an example of unintended consequences...which should always be considered whenever you mess with something.

Let me be clear, there was a metric shit ton of things "considered whenever you mess with something" on this issue. We spent a ton of time with the Department and Commission discussing the importance of this change.

It sounds to me like your convenience of knowing about your draw results is your major grievance and perhaps having your money held for a few months until you have the draw results. While I certainly understand your concern, and also shared those all through the process, I just don't think there's much to complain about.

The upside to what was corrected and gained took wayyyyy more priority when Jeff and I started pressuring the Commission and Department to change the draw dates to after the commission approved the quotas and set the seasons. To practice biology and set seasons appropriately, the field biologists need data. Fact is, there are elk hunts being conducted until January 31. Harvest reporting is not complete until at least a month or two later. Quotas were changing from the time the NR draw took place in January and the season setting in April. That caused a bunch of problems, including NR/R tag splits (which is in regulation), tags being issued for seasons BEFORE the commission approved them, and no way for the commission to address issues on tags/seasons prior to the draw. The public meetings/process were also not happening until the NR draw took place. There was also money being spent by the Department asking biologists to put together the "packet" with proposals based on nothing but their gut instincts to how the elk were fairing, how the winter would be, what harvest trends would look like, etc. etc.

It makes total sense to have the classifications done, the seasons adjusted per the harvest rates, late winter/early spring elk counts completed, and going through the public process prior to the commission meeting. Then, after the commission approves the seasons, quotas, etc....then hold the draw.

If we want our herds managed by the best available science, it flat takes time to gather the data to do so.

In essence, we 100% were about one thing: getting the horse in front of the cart.

As per usual, the WOGA didn't give a rip about the resource or science based management of the resource, the very resource they contribute exactly ZERO money to, only about preserving their agenda of making money by having first crack at elk hunters booking with them.

I wont apologize to anyone for doing what's right by the resource first, then worrying about the considerations of your, or anyone else's convenience on down the line.

It's not like anyone, Resident or Non-Resident, lost a single tag or the opportunity to apply for elk tags in Wyoming.

 

[BuzzH]

True and I still play the game too. I just figured the states would converge more towards New Mexico for example, where you pay up front but are typically refunded in a month or less.

For the record, I love hunting Wyoming and have had great luck there!

Edited to add:
The real reason this has become an interest of mine, is that I have an outfitter picked out I like and want to send a deposit to, but I don't want to go alone. This forced "delay in planning" makes it a more difficult sell to my hunting buddies I'd like to go with me. So while it's a not a deal breaker, it just gives me more pause to look elsewhere.

Look elsewhere then, where those other States also give their biologists and commission the appropriate time to consider seasons, quotas, etc.

Good luck finding a state that provides the amount of opportunity, quality, season length, etc. for elk as Wyoming.

Sound management has placed Wyoming on the top of the heap for elk tag demand, the changes made will help to assure it stays that way.

 

[Dos Perros]

Let me be clear, there was a metric shit ton of things "considered whenever you mess with something" on this issue. We spent a ton of time with the Department and Commission discussing the importance of this change.

It sounds to me like your convenience of knowing about your draw results is your major grievance and perhaps having your money held for a few months until you have the draw results. While I certainly understand your concern, and also shared those all through the process, I just don't think there's much to complain about.

The upside to what was corrected and gained took wayyyyy more priority when Jeff and I started pressuring the Commission and Department to change the draw dates to after the commission approved the quotas and set the seasons. To practice biology and set seasons appropriately, the field biologists need data. Fact is, there are elk hunts being conducted until January 31. Harvest reporting is not complete until at least a month or two later. Quotas were changing from the time the NR draw took place in January and the season setting in April. That caused a bunch of problems, including NR/R tag splits (which is in regulation), tags being issued for seasons BEFORE the commission approved them, and no way for the commission to address issues on tags/seasons prior to the draw. The public meetings/process were also not happening until the NR draw took place. There was also money being spent by the Department asking biologists to put together the "packet" with proposals based on nothing but their gut instincts to how the elk were fairing, how the winter would be, what harvest trends would look like, etc. etc.

It makes total sense to have the classifications done, the seasons adjusted per the harvest rates, late winter/early spring elk counts completed, and going through the public process prior to the commission meeting. Then, after the commission approves the seasons, quotas, etc....then hold the draw.

If we want our herds managed by the best available science, it flat takes time to gather the data to do so.

In essence, we 100% were about one thing: getting the horse in front of the cart.

As per usual, the WOGA didn't give a rip about the resource or science based management of the resource, the very resource they contribute exactly ZERO money to, only about preserving their agenda of making money by having first crack at elk hunters booking with them.

I wont apologize to anyone for doing what's right by the resource first, then worrying about the considerations of your, or anyone else's convenience on down the line.

It's not like anyone, Resident or Non-Resident, lost a single tag or the opportunity to apply for elk tags in Wyoming.

You are not my barometer of what is worth complaining about. What other state holds money for for that long? Wyoming is the worst, right?

There are other reasons to be frustrated, for example, Wyoming had a nice opportunity to pick up a decent tag as a leftover. I see that also negatively impacted by this change.

You can talk all you want about the science being omnipotent, but it falls on deaf ears by how things actually played out.

I'd be curious to know how many non-residents book with outfitters annually, but I might be even more depressed to find out how such a small segment of the population screwed the rest of us public DIY types.

 

[BuzzH]

You are not my barometer of what is worth complaining about. What other state holds money for for that long? Wyoming is the worst, right?

There are other reasons to be frustrated, for example, Wyoming had a nice opportunity to pick up a decent tag as a leftover. I see that also negatively impacted by this change.

You can talk all you want about the science being omnipotent, but it falls on deaf ears by how things actually played out.

I'd be curious to know how many non-residents book with outfitters annually, but I might be even more depressed to find out how such a small segment of the population screwed the rest of us public DIY types.

There is no change to the way leftovers are going to be handled. The NR draw will happen first, then a couple weeks later the Resident draw.

All the leftovers from the Resident draw will then be available in the leftover draw that is open to any hunter, R or NR, no different then its been for the last 20+ years. You have lost NO opportunity at a "nice leftover tag" none.

If you're tone deaf to the importance of science based wildlife management...it isn't my problem.

If you don't like your money being held via the WOGA proposal...contact the GF Commission, more effective than whining on a bulletin board.

 

[cnelk]

I dont know how it is in Wyoming, but in Colorado, it is against State Statute for the CPW to collect any interest on the application monies while it is in escrow.

Im just mentioning this because its my guess that someone will bring that up about the Wyoming system.

 

[BuzzH]

I dont know how it is in Wyoming, but in Colorado, it is against State Statute for the CPW to collect any interest on the application monies while it is in escrow.

Im just mentioning this because its my guess that someone will bring that up about the Wyoming system.

Correct, and even if Wyoming did draw interest for a couple months, it would be peanuts...

 

[dreamingWest]

BuzzH,

It seems as there is some history on this subject that I'm not aware of. I'm starting to regret even getting in on the conversation. As I stated, I've had nothing but good experiences hunting Wyoming and plan to continue to hunt there as long as I can. I'm happy the state is using sound biology for tag allocation. I've had a state biologist directly responsible for a filled mule deer tag a couple of years ago. I've got nothing but good things to say about Wyo Game and Fish.

I prefer the later draw for deer and antelope. It gives me more time to plan. I was happy to learn elk was being pushed back as well. I was just hoping the application due date was changing a long with it.

 

[Fatcamp]

I'm in the process of talking with a Wyoming outfitter about 2020 elk. I figured Wyoming would be a good state to use an outfitter due to the wilderness laws. When he mentioned the draw being pushed back to May, my first question was did they push back the application deadline too? No (he didn't think so).

So now I have to pay him a $1900 deposit and give the state $700-$1300 in January. Only to wait in uncertainty until mid-May. The outfitter does have a policy for a full refund if cancelled by June 1st. But the more I think about the money and dates, the more I think it all sucks. I may be putting Wyoming elk back on the DIY list.

So call him back and tell him that whole situation doesn't work for you and you found a Colorado outfitter with a more reasonable option. Be sure and thank him for his time.

 

[Steve O]

I’ve not read the whole thread. I understand the reasoning for the draw to be done in June along with the deer and antelope draw.

Why do they need my elk license money for 5 months and my deer/antelope application money for only a couple weeks?

 

[BuzzH]

I’ve not read the whole thread. I understand the reasoning for the draw to be done in June along with the deer and antelope draw.

Why do they need my elk license money for 5 months and my deer/antelope application money for only a couple weeks?

The elk draw will not be done in June, it will be done in May, prior to the deer and pronghorn draw.

The WOGA is responsible for lobbying the commission to hold your money for 5 months. It's all been explained, they want to have first crack at locking in NR elk hunters by keeping the application deadline January 31.

Once again, if you want to see a change, contact the Wyoming Game and Fish Commission and ask them to consider moving the application deadline to May 1. There was considerable discussion in April regarding the amount of time that NR's would have their money held, they know there is an issue.