WSJ - Lead Ammo Study and Eagle, Posted Feb 17, 2022

[lif]

These type of studies have so many mathematical loop holes it’s ridiculous. Even if the research was accurate, which it is almost impossible to be, the variable being used can be compared to any base number that creates a statistic to support your claim. I’m sure that there are birds that get lead poisoning, and I can assure you eagles eat gut piles. I live in an area with no substantial water and many eagles, both bald and goldies. I see eagles ripping through the guts of roadkill probably 2-3 times a month and I’ve walked up on a Goldie on a gut pile from a buck I killed a day earlier. But eagle populations to me seem to be booming. I’m not sure eagles are dropping dead left and right from lead.

 

[Marble]

How was the lead identified and tied to bullets?
I ask this specifically due to past so called studies mistakenly identifying the lead source as from bullets.

That's exactly correct. Some of the condors that have died here in CA had high lead levels. Its assumed the lead is from bullets. But when the science breaks down what kind of lead it was, it isn't the type that comes from bullets. The lead was naturally occurring in their diet. The source was not known at the time.

The original images used for banning lead in CA were all hypothetical. They were not actual scans from killed deer. Good do i know this? Our attorney for our conservation group was part fight against the bill. It was very well known at the time that the images were not actual images of deer that had been shot.

Anytime these studies come out I would like to look behind the curtain and see where all the funding comes from.

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[jmez]

The funding list for the study


U.S. Department of Agriculture: WVA00117
U.S. Department of Agriculture: WVA00812
U.S. Department of Agriculture: 2013-14308
U.S. Department of Agriculture: F13PX02485
U.S. Department of Agriculture: OIA-1458952
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: 2013-14308
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: F13PX02485
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: F13PX02485
National Science Foundation: OIA-1458952
Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries
American Eagle Foundation
Virginia Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration: 2013-14308
Neurosciences Foundation: OIA-1458952


How lead is tied to bullets


We expected seasonal variation in lead exposure of eagles (5, 13, 14). Golden eagles of all ages are thought to be occasionally exposed to lead during summer months when consuming lead shot prey such as ground squirrels and more frequently exposed in the winter when feeding on carrion (4). Similarly, bald eagles of all ages are exposed to lead by consuming carrion during the winter months but also occasionally during the breeding season by consuming fish and waterfowl containing lead fishing equipment or gunshot (3). We also expected variation in lead exposure among age classes of eagles since previous studies have shown adults of both species are more likely to exhibit higher lead concentrations then younger age classes (5, 7). Furthermore, there are substantial differences in land cover, climate, and human hunting behavior among regions of North America. However, shooting of wildlife is widespread and prior localized studies have suggested that lead exposure of eagles occurs in multiple regions of the continent (5, 7, 13). For these reasons we felt it was appropriate to test for differences in lead exposure among flyways, but our expectation was that lead exposure should be similar regardless of region.

 

[jmez]

Media outlets reporting of the findings:

Poisoning at the levels found in the study is causing population growth rates to slow for bald eagles by 3.8 percent and golden eagles by 0.8 percent annually. Previously, evaluations of lead exposure and its impact on eagle populations were only performed in local and regional studies. This groundbreaking study documents how lead poisoning inhibits both species’ population growth across North America.


From the actual study:

Because we did not consider how density dependence, other environmental factors, or uncertainty in N might affect the outcome, this modeling represents an illustrative exercise rather than a prediction.

There are no concrete conclusions from this study. It is all statistical modeling about what could be possible.

 

[displacedtexan]

There have also been major efforts to increase eagle populations, especially Bald Eagles.

Including captive breeding.

 

[OMB]

I've never seen a bald eagle on a big game animal gut pile. I'm sure they find some but it isn't common.

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It's very common on our farm in Iowa to have 15-20 eagles perched in the trees on a field edge above fresh gut piles during gun season. They'll usually have the guts gone within a day.

That being said, our area has some of the highest concentration of bald eagles in the upper midwest, and it's not going to stop me from using lead.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Once Imperiled, America's Bald Eagle Populations Are Soaring

The number of bald eagles in the lower 48 states has quadrupled since 2009, according to a new survey. The findings are a bright spot in an otherwise troubling picture for American birds.

www.npr.org

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

What other birds have a diet similar to eagles? How is lead affecting those birds? Have they traced the source of the lead?

 

[FlyFishStout_CO]

Media outlets reporting of the findings:

Poisoning at the levels found in the study is causing population growth rates to slow for bald eagles by 3.8 percent and golden eagles by 0.8 percent annually. Previously, evaluations of lead exposure and its impact on eagle populations were only performed in local and regional studies. This groundbreaking study documents how lead poisoning inhibits both species’ population growth across North America.


From the actual study:

Because we did not consider how density dependence, other environmental factors, or uncertainty in N might affect the outcome, this modeling represents an illustrative exercise rather than a prediction.

There are no concrete conclusions from this study. It is all statistical modeling about what could be possible.

Do you have a link to this study? Sorry if I missed it but I'd love to share with some folks that should be set straight.

 

[LongWayAround]

I didn't read the article but plan to revisit it.

Those of you that don't think eagles scavenge and feed on gut piles. Really? That is extremely common. Many times have I walked up on a kill and flushed eagles amongst crows and ravens. I see them feeding on road killed deer regularly. I'm sure in some coastal areas they eat a substantial amount of fish but they routinely scavenge land animals in the rest of their range.

 

[jmez]

.https://www.science.org/doi/10.112...6472541199F70A4C98A6%40AdobeOrg|TS=1645229394

Go to supplemental materials and you can see the materials and methods. Can't read the discussion unless you have full access. I don't.

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[dtrkyman]

Eagles are thick anywhere along the Mississippi in the Midwest, the rive all along Illinois is absolutely loaded with them, leave a gut pile in the field and there will be half a dozen bald eagles and a golden on it in the morning!

I actually recovered a doe a kid shot the next morning when I saw an eagle on it out in a pasture!

No idea if lead ammo is an issue or not, but it sure doesn't appear to be, I know the lead shot ban for waterfowl helped.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Sounds like more gun control propaganda to me.

 

[elkhunter505]

Wouldn't they want to take samples of true carrion birds?? AKA vultures. Because Vultures definitely only eat dead shit, and eagles are not 100% scavenger..

Turkey vultures have a different system than eagles. Their tolerance to lead is extremely high in comparison. They’re not the right animal to compare with eagles. In my opinion, the country should be working towards affordable non-toxic shot and bullets. We just aren’t there yet and there has not been enough of a movement from shooters or hunters for companies to make the investment in it. In all reality, I feel like if copper performed as well as lead and was similar price-wise, 95% of people would switch immediately. But that could just be my own perspective of the issue.

 

[Wolf_trapper]

Oh we're going to be forced to shoot more expensive bullets on behalf of raptors. If you don't get behind this initiative you are a heartless murderer.

Pretty clear to most of us that eagles aren't hurting but gun control needs a new angle.

 

[cornfedkiller]

It's very common on our farm in Iowa to have 15-20 eagles perched in the trees on a field edge above fresh gut piles during gun season. They'll usually have the guts gone within a day.

That being said, our area has some of the highest concentration of bald eagles in the upper midwest, and it's not going to stop me from using lead.

I thought the same thing. I live near a river, and in the winter, I can see 20+ eagles at one time perched in the trees along the river.

I shot a deer several years ago and left the guts in the middle of a field, and there were 5 eagles on it the next day. However, there wasn't any lead in the guts...

 

[Ryan Avery]

Interesting listen

86 - Get The Lead Out - Going Ballistic with Ryan Cleckner

D-Lead Soap Ryan mentioned a complete listing of all firearm contests and gun giveaways (without referral/affiliate links). Check out the list! Also, wondering how much an FFL costs? Visit RocketFFL to find out! Ryan uploaded a Barrett MRAD review...

pca.st

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[EastHumboldt]

Every year where I hunt I witness golden eagles, ravens, and magpies feed on my kill and that of others. Never seen any turkey vultures on it though I’m sure that happens cuz they are around. I never thought about this before. I guarantee you some of those birds are eating lead. Guess I’m gonna have to change my hunting rounds to solid copper or non toxic.

Last year on the way out of camp we encountered a young Golden Eagle who was certainly mature enough to fly but couldn’t fly. It ran away from us down the trail for at least 1/2 mile. It was pretty pathetic. It didn’t seem to have an injury but acted like it was drunk. We thought it got into a poisoned coyote carcass or it was otherwise sick. Never thought of lead poisoning but I suppose that is possible.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’ve seen several posts in here along the lines of “I see lotsa eagles all the time, so they don’t need our help!” Thats the same as the logic that says “ I have a dump truck full of marbles so there’s no way I could possibly run out”. So it costs you a few extra bucks to try and slow down on the speed at which our species is poisoning the planet. Why wouldn’t you?

 

[RyanT26]

I’ve seen several posts in here along the lines of “I see lotsa eagles all the time, so they don’t need our help!” Thats the same as the logic that says “ I have a dump truck full of marbles so there’s no way I could possibly run out”. So it costs you a few extra bucks to try and slow down on the speed at which our species is poisoning the planet. Why wouldn’t you?

Because in reality amount of lead that I put back into the earth, remember it’s a natural occurring element, is minuscule compared to the level that industries and probably even even your common household put on there.

Why does lead only affect eagles? Seems like no one gives a shit about vultures or crows.

And since you’re trying to bring the emotional argument of we’re poisoning our planet why don’t you to do your part and immediately park your vehicle and never drive again.
Also you need to stop using and rid your house of all plastics. Come on man stop poisoning the planet. Why wouldn’t you???

Do it for the children and the planet. You have to do your part first.