Lead poisoning in eagles

Thanks for sharing the initial post and article. While no doubt vested entities will try to leverage it for anti-hunting agendas, nowadays I think it's so important to look at all issues with an open, objective mind.

It's hurts all our causes to "pick a side" and blindly fight for it without actually looking at issues. Yes, we need to be aware of all the prejudices out there against hunting, but we also love nature which we spend so much time in. So maybe, just maybe, sometimes there are things we can improve also.

I certainly don't know enough from the article and background research to make a definitive argument either way, but...

For any .22 varmint control I do on my property I will make a point to use non-lead bullets, as it's easy to see the bald eagles and beautiful raptors in the area scavenging the carcasses.
 
It's pretty easy to determine if the lead is from ammunition. It will be in their stomach. Are they retrieving lead bullets from the digestive tracts of eagles? If not, it's a lie. I'm sure it happens but I can't imagine 1/2 of all eagles just happen to eat the one piece of meat with a bullet lodged in it. If they are saying it comes from the meat, why don' all of us have lead poisoning? Also guess what is on public land? Shooting ranges. Most shooters don't even hunt. I shoot about 20 rounds a year for hunting and 5-10k a year practicing for competitions.
 
Zork said:
Yes. The scientists spend 6-10 years paying for college to make 50k a year -- best plan I've ever heard for getting rich.

How about the scientists are just figuring this shit out? Like at one point in time we didn't know what gravity was? Or any of a trillion other things that we've learned as time passed on.

I don't know whether it's willful ignorance or what here but ****. If you guys don't give a shit about eagles, why don't you just say that?
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O.K. sure they spent some time and money to get a education, perhaps they make 50 thousand a year perhaps more, yes they recieve grant money from the gov. perhaps they put some of that in there pockets and cook the books, I like eagels but as Ben Franklin said the wild turkey should of been the bird, eagels are lazy theives. I do not buy a bunch of the liberal bull shit that is stated in these issues, sure theres lead in the birds theres lead in the fish theres lead in just about everything now of days, hell everything in california will kill you, if that is the case there should be no one or anything in that f@@ked up state or new york. The lead bullet bans is just one more chip at the stone thats called the 2nd.
 
Yoder said:
It's pretty easy to determine if the lead is from ammunition. It will be in their stomach. Are they retrieving lead bullets from the digestive tracts of eagles? If not, it's a lie.
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Not sure it's that easy. They have a powerful digestive tract. I'd imagine with the acids in their stomach, lead would be no problem to break down. Humans tend to pass lead without breaking it down and absorbing.
 
Yoder said:
It's pretty easy to determine if the lead is from ammunition. It will be in their stomach. Are they retrieving lead bullets from the digestive tracts of eagles? If not, it's a lie. I'm sure it happens but I can't imagine 1/2 of all eagles just happen to eat the one piece of meat with a bullet lodged in it. If they are saying it comes from the meat, why don' all of us have lead poisoning? Also guess what is on public land? Shooting ranges. Most shooters don't even hunt. I shoot about 20 rounds a year for hunting and 5-10k a year practicing for competitions.
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Eagles also pick up grit on the side of the road where million and millions of pounds of lead tire weights are shed each year..

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Around 10,000 tons of lead hunting and 70,000 tons at ranges go into the ground each year I have read. All things aside, that can’t be good for the eco system, can it? Any scientist able to chime in?
 
Sled said:
Not sure it's that easy. They have a powerful digestive tract. I'd imagine with the acids in their stomach, lead would be no problem to break down. Humans tend to pass lead without breaking it down and absorbing.
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From the Google:

Hydrochloric acid: Lead dissolves extremely slowly in hydrochloric acid. In warm hydrochloric acid, it dissolves very slowly (a minor improvement) and crystals of lead(II) chloride are precipitated when the solution is cooled. Even the addition of hydrogen peroxide does not help much.

Knowing that, any lead would either be passed or would be found in the digestive tract. Are they finding bullets in their digestive tract? I'm sure it happens but I doubt it's 50% of eagles. I know lead sinkers are an issue with Loons eating them. They usually Xray them to see if they have any lead. How many Eagles have been Xrayed or autopsied and had lead removed from their stomachs? If there is no solid lead it's from another source.

At work I've seen gold and platinum both used with strong acids so it doesn't surprise me that lead would be hard to dissolve as well.

Something my friend just mentioned. How many whitetail hunters leave a carcass in the woods? I don't know anyone who does that. It would only be people hunting large animals like elk or moose. Some shots are pass thrus. Waterfowl is all non lead shot. How many bullets are actually left in animals in the field? Doesn't really seem like many. Certainly not enough to kill 50% of the eagles.
 
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Yoder said:
From the Google:

Hydrochloric acid: Lead dissolves extremely slowly in hydrochloric acid. In warm hydrochloric acid, it dissolves very slowly (a minor improvement) and crystals of lead(II) chloride are precipitated when the solution is cooled. Even the addition of hydrogen peroxide does not help much.

Knowing that, any lead would either be passed or would be found in the digestive tract. Are they finding bullets in their digestive tract? I'm sure it happens but I doubt it's 50% of eagles. I know lead sinkers are an issue with Loons eating them. They usually Xray them to see if they have any lead. How many Eagles have been Xrayed or autopsied and had lead removed from their stomachs? If there is no solid lead it's from another source.

At work I've seen gold and platinum both used with strong acids so it doesn't surprise me that lead would be hard to dissolve as well.

Something my friend just mentioned. How many whitetail hunters leave a carcass in the woods? I don't know anyone who does that. It would only be people hunting large animals like elk or moose. Some shots are pass thrus. Waterfowl is all non lead shot. How many bullets are actually left in animals in the field? Doesn't really seem like many. Certainly not enough to kill 50% of the eagles.
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If the source is reliable, here are some X-rays.

Eagles and Lead – Raptor rehabilitation, education, and research

soarraptors.org soarraptors.org
 
Interesting about the lead particles in ground wild game, been eating those types of ground meat my whole life (going on 66 now) was a state certified firearms instructor, range commander certified line safety officer, certified armorer for 3 different weapons we used in our duties for near 15 years, been shooting all types of weapons since around 10 years old, been a re-loader for near 40 years, 8 years in the Marine Corps around various weapons, while firearms instructing we were lead tested every 6 mos to a year never had a bad lead report. Wonder if the experts ever done mercury level testing in the eagles especially the coastal ones. But then I know of no weapons that shoot mercury bullets.
 
Sled said:
If the source is reliable, here are some X-rays.

Eagles and Lead – Raptor rehabilitation, education, and research

soarraptors.org soarraptors.org
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This looks pretty bad. I really didn't think that many deer were left in the woods or that the gut pile would contain that much lead. The fact that Iowa is a shotgun state may contribute to that. I guess you also have to realize how long these birds live. The odds increase dramatically of coming across lead after 20 years or more.
I don't think it's a big deal to switch from lead based bullets for hunting. I doubt anyone would have a problem with it if it wasn't for the politics of taking away our gun rights. Politicians never let a crisis go to waste and this is the perfect issue to have all lead ammunition banned. This would extremely limit ammo availability and drive cost up to a point where many people would not be able to shoot at all or very little. Let's not kid ourselves, they will use this to ban lead ammunition and it won't be about wildlife. This does however make me rethink my use of lead for deer hunting.
 
Eagles are having a tough go of it. Between clean power and dirty hunters they are gonna be gone in no time.
 
Wrench said:
I pulled him straight from the acknowledgments and did some google foo. Feel free to check all their references.

Like I said, we can make any data we want.

To tell me that a bird is going to search out lead pellets in the wild is a tough sell. Even on the shotgun range they're not easy to find, let alone in the field.

I can't argue that their sample did contain lead, and that eagles may prey on hunter killed game....but how many healthy, wild eagles have they killed to asses their health? If their on this massive trend to die from lead poisoning, how are they on such a strong increase in population?

In the 60's there was still a majority of lead used in house water supplies and yet humans didn't vanish.

I'm not trying to say they have no merit in the study, but I will bet there's a desired outcome stresssed before the data collection occurred.

As a challenge to all, go find 3 lead pellets in the field this year. I'll give you the whole year because you'll need it.
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If you are an actual researcher, than you know how to assess internal and external validity. From a research perspective, what you say above is drivel. If the studies are so bad you should be able to pick them apart easily.

Bubblehide said:
My mistake, it was someone else's thread.

You give a very strong indication of ignoring facts and going with the opinion of the researchers in question, instead of questioning their research, as science should do.

I have not researched this. However, I do know that in the past, paint was identified as a major source and confirmed visually, photographically and with video evidence of such birds pecking and ingesting lead based paint. Granted, lead based paint has been illegal for some time, but unfortunately, it has also been painted over instead of being removed. In the past the forest service was called out for not removing lead based paint from their structures.

Additionally, and once again, lead occurs naturally in the environment. Birds in general ingest many things, including small rocks, pebbles... which can and in some cases do contain lead. Simply pointing the finger at bullets with no real evidence is simply not science and not acceptable. But this type of agenda proliferates anyway.

As I suggested previously, you can simply search industries that use and have used lead in their products, it's really pretty simple, even the laziest of persons can do a decent job. But to name one more, the plumbing field has used lead extensively, and can be a possible source. But as I stated previously, there are literally thousands of possible sources as lead was a very common element in many products over the years; singling out one product with no real evidence is NOT science.
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The paint in question was confirmed to have a different isotopic signature from bullets and the lead poisoning the majority of condors (other than those witnessesed to roost at the abandoned fire tower in question). Perhaps you should take your own advice on educating yourself on the topic.
Yoder said:
It's pretty easy to determine if the lead is from ammunition. It will be in their stomach. Are they retrieving lead bullets from the digestive tracts of eagles? If not, it's a lie. I'm sure it happens but I can't imagine 1/2 of all eagles just happen to eat the one piece of meat with a bullet lodged in it. If they are saying it comes from the meat, why don' all of us have lead poisoning? Also guess what is on public land? Shooting ranges. Most shooters don't even hunt. I shoot about 20 rounds a year for hunting and 5-10k a year practicing for competitions.
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People who hunt with lead have higher blood lead levels than people who do not. We don't eat the blood shot meat that has lots of lead fragments and we have a much higher body weight. As the TD50 and LD50 of lead is measured in g/Kg, we would need to eat a lot more than an eagle to show symptoms.

It is the fragmentation that is the issue, not whole bullets. When we talk about weight retention, the shed weight must go somewhere. Even on a pass through, that weight is shed in the animal.

Low level lead exposure does not do much to adults, but it hurts children due to their growing brains. So, because I have two small children I now hunt with copper. I need some copper 22 lr though as the fragmentation on ptarmigan with lead is worse than I expected and I really like eating ptarmigan.
 
Wrench said:
Eagles are having a tough go of it. Between clean power and dirty hunters they are gonna be gone in no time.
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I see more eagles in PA than I ever have in my life. There's even one living near the lake in my community. I think they will be fine. If not we can always make the turkey our national bird like Ben Franklin suggested. I think it's more appropriate lately anyway.
 
Yoder said:
I see more eagles in PA than I ever have in my life. There's even one living near the lake in my community. I think they will be fine. If not we can always make the turkey our national bird like Ben Franklin suggested. I think it's more appropriate lately anyway.
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My comment was THICK with sarcasm. We have the same here in my area.
 
jolemons said:
Eagles, hawks and ravens quickly learn to follow after people shooting prairie dogs and ground squirrels. I switched to lead free .17 hmr because of this. I know those small rodent carcasses can be full of lead fragmentation from hollow points.

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From what I have read copper hits way harder than lead because it wont fragment. There are some pretty nasty reports coming out on tiny lead particles that embed themselves deep into game meat from high powered rifle rounds. At the end of the day I think the hunting community should be proactive on switching to lead free bullets or the anti-gun crowd will beat the market to the punch and its a battle they will eventually win.

The same goes for lead free primers. I would rather shoot and not be worried about a cloud of lead settling on all my clothes etc.
 
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