Wolves in the Gila

[nm_nomad]

Mexican Greys have been on the come up in the Gila. They’ve definitely done some damage on both elk and deer on a few of the units down there. Plus it sounds like they’re hard on cattle in some areas. Who knows if something would actually be done and what “management” would be.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico/catron-county-could-declare-state-of-emergency-over-mexican-grey-wolf-population/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_KRQE_News_13&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0lGNQ3WBJpliWYBk9des-kF8q4lDA8aq-W54g0ZCb54F8h_7x_wVim1Ik_aem_1PiF5ryDY7Ncv0AWVl4xBQ&mibextid=S66gvF

 

[JPD350]

Here's one I got on a trail camera, they also eat a bunch of turkeys. I also had one eat a good part of a cow elk I had to leave overnight

 

[Beendare]

I was archery hunting near there and had wolves howling around me on 2 nights while hiking out in the dark.

I saw where the work lovers have people monitoring them so that no one shoots them.

 

[Poser]

I understand that the MGW are currently listed as a critically endangered species though they have made a bit of a recent comeback. I'm in the Northern boundary of their range in SW Colorado and was surprised that nothing about this subspecies' range and status was considered when reintroducing wolves to Colorado. What happens when the 2 species overlap?

 

[Beendare]

The current administration is trying to reverse the past admins policy of protecting the Gray Wolves. There is a current bill in Congress to delist them.

Hopefully we get a reversal to common sense policy. Anti Hunting politics has tied the hands of Wildlife managers.

How can you manage an ecosystem when one deadly predator goes unchecked?

 

[WTFJohn]

I understand that the MGW are currently listed as a critically endangered species though they have made a bit of a recent comeback. I'm in the Northern boundary of their range in SW Colorado and was surprised that nothing about this subspecies' range and status was considered when reintroducing wolves to Colorado. What happens when the 2 species overlap?

On this map, you can see the northern and southern reintroduction areas circled. You can also see a dashed b&w line representing the continental divide, a red line running E/W south of the WY border, a red line running N/S easy of the UT border, and a multi-segmented red line going parallel to the southern border of CO then arcing down to the south. These 4 lines are the reintroduction boundaries, it is my understanding they will be allowed to live within the state in the grayed out areas. UT, AZ, and NM all have agreements with CO to return collared wolves. WY does not, as we saw recently.

A change in federal policy would be nice. I'll be very curious to see if the precedent in WY follows into other states when it comes to depredations, regardless of what state policy is.

 

[Poser]

My questions was more along the lines of, "will the reintroduced Gray wolf species kill the (smaller) Mexican Gray wolves upon encountering each other?"

 

[WTFJohn]

My questions was more along the lines of, "will the reintroduced Gray wolf species kill the (smaller) Mexican Gray wolves upon encountering each other?"

Yeah, they will kill them/breed them. I'll ask our DWM or one of the game damage specialists next time I see them if there is a plan, wouldn't be shocked if there wasn't yet. Spent 3 hrs with them Saturday, wish I had asked for that update then.

 

[elkhunter505]

My questions was more along the lines of, "will the reintroduced Gray wolf species kill the (smaller) Mexican Gray wolves upon encountering each other?"

There’s some articles from Stewart Liley and Jim Heffelfinger talking about swamping genetics mostly (Article here). Bigger wolves, more fit and better in a fight for females. Part of the reason why the I-40 corridor is considered the northern boundary. Trying to protect the genetics of Mexican gray wolves from being outbred by bigger stronger wolves. They’re all subspecies and likely it is too hot in NM for larger phenotypes to flourish long term but they could get larger on the short term. Wolves from the north before the CO reintro have been as far south as Vermejo park and Mexican grays have at least made it to the Valles Caldera as far as I know. At any point we could see them making contact with each other. They roam. FWS has good tabs on most of the Mexican grays but I’m sure uncollared ones slip through the cracks and are roaming north.

 

[7mm-08]

Quoting County Commissioners is a poor strategy to convince soccer moms to vote whichever way any particular individual desires because they spew alarmist crap, which is evident in the OP's attachment to his very first post. Show me where pets are being snatched from front yards and livestock are being killed (without the State and USDA's Wildlife Services folks being all over it) and I'll buy you a beer. We've lived with introduced wolves in Idaho since 1995. Migration trends are wholly different than reintroduction efforts.

 

[elkhunter505]

Quoting County Commissioners is a poor strategy to convince soccer moms to vote whichever way any particular individual desires because they spew alarmist crap, which is evident in the OP's attachment to his very first post. Show me where pets are being snatched from front yards and livestock are being killed (without the State and USDA's Wildlife Services folks being all over it) and I'll buy you a beer. We've lived with introduced wolves in Idaho since 1995. Migration trends are wholly different than reintroduction efforts.

I have friends in the NM ranching industry sharing videos and pictures almost every day right now of “wolf” kills. Don’t get me wrong, I know it happens and I know it sucks and they have every right to be pissed but I am very skeptical on the ability of the average person to discern between a scavenging event and a predation event. No doubt I’ve seen videos and pictures of necropsies that clearly show predation events, but I’d be shocked if the level they are claiming is truly happening. Those wolves have needed some pursuit for a while I would say. I ran into them with my dad in 16B two years ago and since I have no stake in the game, I was ecstatic to hear them. Such a cool experience. But definitely hearing them while also seeing a couple other camps in the area made me thing they weren’t too worried about humans which they should be if we want them to coexist and live on the landscape.

 

[nm_nomad]

Quoting County Commissioners is a poor strategy to convince soccer moms to vote whichever way any particular individual desires because they spew alarmist crap, which is evident in the OP's attachment to his very first post. Show me where pets are being snatched from front yards and livestock are being killed (without the State and USDA's Wildlife Services folks being all over it) and I'll buy you a beer. We've lived with introduced wolves in Idaho since 1995. Migration trends are wholly different than reintroduction efforts.

Just posing a question on what management could even mean and seeing if other people have had much experience with them. I’m in the Gila a lot and have seen them but never had aggression towards me. But do know elk and deer herds are down specifically in units that have a lot of wolves.

 

[Gila]

I don’t have a problem with the lobos being there. There are too many cattle leases in the Gila units if you ask me. Hunters tend to leave the gates open so the cattle go where they shouldn’t be. If ranchers lose calves on the leases it’s their own problem because they are bringing the cattle to the wolves on the National Forest lands. I have only seen wolves in there during the rut when they take wounded elk. If you need to leave your elk overnight for some reason put a sweater or some clothing on the antlers or head area. I have used an orange laundry bag. No predators will bother your elk overnight but I would get out there early because your scent won’t last long. I find cutting up an elk at night with wolves howling to be an exciting time!

The Lobos need protection until their numbers come up. They are not Gray wolves. They are a sub-species of Wolf. They are genetically different than the Gray wolf. Same thing with the Red Wolf. In the absence of other wolf species in its range, Red Wolf hybridization can occur with the Eastern Coyote. El Lobos are now crossing I-40 and will be established in Northern NM within a few years. The Gray wolves released in Colorado may get to the southern elk migration. If they do the Lobos and the Grays could intersect where our state elk herd is around Chama. In that case the Lobos could hybridize with the Grays. In my opinion, we need to think about how that hybridization could drive the Mexican Wolf into extinction. IMO, there were mistakes made where the Lobos were released in NM and the release of the grays in Colorado.