Why cant people accept the fact that some people dont need a drop tested scope?

[Reburn]

Not in my experience of guiding at least 160 hunters over a 16 year period. Can't count the times a guy misses an animal a time or three and immediately starts blaming the scope. We go shoot it, and its dead on where it should be. The hunter has nothing to say after that. And if you think most people know how to read wind you're really kidding yourself.

You're a guide?
I would love to know who for / where you guide.

 

[JGRaider]

For myself. We ran antelope, whitetail, mule deer, hogs, and aoudad hunts in W TX, E NM, and the TX Panhandle for 16 years.

 

[Reburn]

For myself. We ran antelope, whitetail, mule deer, hogs, and aoudad hunts in W TX, E NM, and the TX Panhandle for 16 years.

Do you still guide?

What is the name of the guide service?

 

[JGRaider]

No, we quit doing that about 8 years ago. Landowners dying off, dealing with kids/grandkids, etc became more trouble than it's worth.

 

[wyosam]

This is just a silly statement.

it would have to be a 9-mph sustained wind to move a bullet 0.5 moa at 100. If you can’t identify a 9-mph wind, take up knitting.

It’s not hard to torque down action screws. They make wrenches for this.

If you can’t shoot your gun without flinching 1/2" at 100 you suck, take up knitting.

Pic scope mounts are pretty easy to check torque on. Again, they make wrenches for this.

Ammo comes with the lot # on it.

That leaves bedding and the scope.

Not that hard to check out where the fault might be.

Guess what, the vast majority of hunters aren’t on the internet shooting 1/2” groups “all day long” (IIDMP). Most are just like the majority of hunters actually are on the internet- minute of pie plate at best if it’s not solidly locked in sandbags.


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[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Why is it acceptable to stack scope zero tolerance on top of the shooter and rifle tolerances? If anything, seems like y'all are making the case that a scope that reliably maintains zero is more important for novice shooters because their cone is already larger than skilled shooters.

 

[Reburn]

Guess what, the vast majority of hunters aren’t on the internet shooting 1/2” groups “all day long” (IIDMP). Most are just like the majority of hunters actually are on the internet- minute of pie plate at best if it’s not solidly locked in sandbags.


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So, because they are minute of pie plate at 100 its ok to use equipment that drives their hit percentage down even further. Because it doesn’t matter they suck anyways right?

What if a large source of their minute of pie plate is a wandering zero and half of it can be fixed with a solid scope?

For the record I never said I shoot 1/2 moa all day. I have posted many groups online. Very good and very bad. I don’t have anything to hide about my shooting deficiencies.

 

[wyosam]

So, because they are minute of pie plate at 100 its ok to use equipment that drives their hit percentage down even further. Because it doesn’t matter they suck anyways right?

What if a large source of their minute of pie plate is a wandering zero and half of it can be fixed with a solid scope?

For the record I never said I shoot 1/2 moa all day. I have posted many groups online. Very good and very bad. I don’t have anything to hide about my shooting deficiencies.

That was a response your post about how easy it all is to fix- reading a half inch worth of wind (.I’d sure hope so), putting in the effort to keep things from moving etc. in response to the average person not being able to isolate a 1/2 moa shift. Yes, everyone would ideally have a reliable rifle and optic to work from. But the fact is for those shooters, on any given break of the trigger the distance and direction their scope is off is either going to help or hurt. ie they jerked the shot 4” right- the 2” the scope is off on windage is either going to put the shot 6” right, or 2” closer to point of aim. Statistically it’s 50/50 other than the tendency to jerk toward the trigger hand.

Everyone should have a reliable rifle, and spend adequate time with meaningful practice. I’d bet more shots are missed because of the loose screw behind the gun than bad scopes/bad mounting/bad bedding/ bad ammo combined.


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[Chris_in_Idaho]

Not in my experience of guiding at least 160 hunters over a 16 year period. Can't count the times a guy misses an animal a time or three and immediately starts blaming the scope. We go shoot it, and its dead on where it should be. The hunter has nothing to say after that. And if you think most people know how to read wind you're really kidding yourself.

Those are the worst, when it's way off for one shot and then the recoil resettles the erector. That's just like what happened in the VX3 3.5-10 drop eval, top of post 2, where simply riding on the back seat of a truck caused it to shoot way left, but then the next 9 rounds were right back on target.

So not only does it let you down but then it lies to you. You'd think "oh well it's still shooting great, I guess the problem was me," losing your confidence while continuing to trust equipment that has let you down and will again. These types of failures are impossible to find without this kind of testing.

 

[eoperator]

I remember having the same opinion as the op. An incident on a mt elk hunt changed my outlook on the subject forever.

Our moring hunt turned up fruitless so we headed down the mountain midday in my sxs on the the way to a different spot. I was eating a sandwich steering with my knee as we putted along and all of a sudden the ass end slid sideways on an icy patch the back tire caught a rock and over we went. Our rifles were in a plano type padded case strapped to the hood with scope coats and a towel wedged between to prevent any blemishes.

One of the scopes failed completely and the other had only a very minimal shift in zero. Neither of the scopes had even the slightest blemish from the incident.

Stuff like this does not happen every day but I do know that my rifles today have very good odds of surviving a few bumps along the way, thanks to Form

 

[Marbles]

And I see you one up'ed the silliness.

I bet the majority of people dont even think twice about a 2" group at 100 yds before going hunting. I see it all the time with targets left behind at the range the week before deer season. They would have no clue if their scope was introducing a 1/2" variation as they see it as acceptable and wouldn't even investigate.

My wife is a 2" group shooter in most feld situations. I know this because I make her practice before any hunt so I know what her limitations are. She missed her first animal this year. She panicked when she forgot to flip the safety off. She chambered another round and made the follow up shot in the vitals. She isn't taking up knitting any time soon.

The current step I am working on. I don't have a rest, so starting off a pack.

Grouping prone, from a front and rear sandbag until 10 round groups are 1.5’ish MOA. Once on consistent precision from a rest is achieved, then prone over a backpack until 10 round groups are 1.5 MOA and no larger than 2 MOA on demand. Same for a bipod if using one.
Once someone can lay down at any point and hit a 2 MOA target with every round fired over a pack, then positional work needs to happen. Sitting and kneeling using alternate rests, primarily a pack if you use one, but with hiking sticks, tripod, downed trees, etc. 2 MOA targets should be consistent from these positions. Then standing using both rests and offhand.

 

[Skerhunter]

Those are the worst, when it's way off for one shot and then the recoil resettles the erector. That's just like what happened in the VX3 3.5-10 drop eval, top of post 2, where simply riding on the back seat of a truck caused it to shoot way left, but then the next 9 rounds were right back on target.

So not only does it let you down but then it lies to you. You'd think "oh well it's still shooting great, I guess the problem was me," losing your confidence while continuing to trust equipment that has let you down and will again. These types of failures are impossible to find without this kind of testing.

Here is an example. First shot low, then magically zeroed again for the next 9 shots. I have randomly experienced this my entire life (pre-drop test info). Hopefully this issue is resolved now!

To the ones arguing you don’t need a perfect zero to kill something. You are correct, my first scope I had to hold about 1’ to the left of my target to hit anything (ran out of windage). I got my first deer but it wasn’t pretty! I also had a leupold lose zero on a hunt. After I repeatedly shot an antelope in the guts (got it so proves your point), I checked zero and was 6” right. Zero was checked less than 24 hours prior to that.

With my experience and the experience shared on here, there is no reason to suggest someone buy a scope that is prone to failures, that is a waste of time/money. To me the drop test just confirms what I didn’t understand and I’m grateful for the time/money spent doing it!

 

[35WhelenAI]

I understand how the ignorant could think their scope shifting zero easily is okay. That's just how rifle scopes are, right?

I can understand why people disagree that their scope model/brand doesn't reliably hold zero. They disagree with the testing and anecdotal evidence here and elsewhere.

I can understand why someone would stick with a scope knowing that it is unlikely to reliably hold zero through mild to moderate abuse. The risk is known and can be managed.

I can't understand why someone would acknowledge that a scope model/brand is unlikely to reliably hold zero and purchase/recommend it over others of similar cost with better potential for reliable zero retention.

I see where you're coming from. You have a sneaky way of throwing downtalk into what could otherwise be pretty good posts at times. Ignorant? Come on, does that add to the quality or perception of what you're saying?

Can we look at it from the angle of how many head of big game have you taken with scopes that do well in the drop tests vs. brands (not necessarily the same model) that don't do well?

Not a one head of my 30+ head of game taken is scopes or scope brands that do well in the tests. Had 1 cow elk not recovered, shot was over a snow covered leaning log with a glove under the forend. .5 MOA wouldn't have made a lick for difference. I pulled the shot as the rifle slid on the snowy log as the trigger was set to break. Anecdotal evidence is very useful, I agree. Lots of it.

 

[willfrye027]

If we’re talking scope fails..

5 years ago high country backpack hunt with my uncle. I killed my buck opening morning. That evening my uncle missed a buck 5 times at 200 yards. I watched his bullets spark off a granite cliff right above that deer.

Next morning I convince him to take my rifle. He kills a nice buck at 400 yards, perfect shot.

After the hunt he remembers that he tipped over his gun on the bipod the evening before we left…damn thing was barely on paper at 100 yards when we got home.

his scope was a leupy vx3 or something (had killed probably 20 animals up to that point, lots of pigs) mine was a vortex diamondback.

His scope had also failed the year before on his once in a lifetime CA antelope hunt but no abuse other than riding on a quad.

He was very accustomed to zeroing and rezeroing..

 

[Archer86]

Seams there sure are alot of hunters out in the field dropping/ knocking over firearms accoring to this thread which just seams crazy and scary to me. What's even worse is these will be the same guys that drop there bulletproof set up off a ledge then start lobbing bullets at animals across the canyon because the set up is drop test approved.....

 

[Jason Snyder]

Seams there sure are alot of hunters out in the field dropping/ knocking over firearms accoring to this thread which just seams crazy and scary to me.

Some people hunt country that’s easy to fall in. Really easy.

 

[wyosam]

Some people hunt country that’s easy to fall in. Really easy.

Yeah, some folks are pretty hardcore. There’s also all the folks that tripped over it on the bipod, regularly drop it while leaning it against a tree, wreck the atv while carrying etc. As someone who has hunted primarily solo for decades, in all sorts of terrain and weather, I’ve found that the same attention to not getting hurt and ruining a hunt/burdoning SAR folks/dying while traversing tough terrain also has worked really well in avoiding beating the shit out of my gear. Doesn’t mean avoiding slips and falls altogether, but paying attention when appropriate and controlling falls when they happen goes a long ways.

Having reliable gear is great, but the pride in dropping one’s rifle and beating it up by generally bumbling through the mountains in this forum is fricken odd.


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[Jason Snyder]

Doesn’t mean avoiding slips and falls altogether, but paying attention when appropriate and controlling falls when they happen goes a long ways.

Certainly. It’s not a badge of honor to fall, but it sure happens.

 

[freddyG]

Some folks seem to miss the fact that they are on a website called rokslide, and not kornpile.

 

[Tod osier]

Some folks seem to miss the fact that they are on a website called rokslide, and not kornpile.

Maybe there needs to be a designation WKR vs WKK .