Who else has caught the Rona?

[PablitoPescador]

SARS-CoV-2 Infections and Hospitalizations Among Persons...

COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness, reinfection, and hospitalization in fully, partially, and unvaccinated people during the Delta variant in Los Angeles County, California.

www.cdc.gov

"During May 1–July 25, 2021, among 43,127 SARS-CoV-2 infections in residents of Los Angeles County, California, 10,895 (25.3%) were in fully vaccinated persons, 1,431 (3.3%) were in partially vaccinated persons, and 30,801 (71.4%) were in unvaccinated persons. On July 25, infection and hospitalization rates among unvaccinated persons were 4.9 and 29.2 times, respectively, those in fully vaccinated persons."

This seems like a very good argument for vaccines.

Seems like it...until you realize that an unvaccinated person is defined as "<14 days receipt of the first dose of a 2-dose series or 1 dose of the single-dose vaccine or if no vaccination registry data were available.." Check out figure 1.

 

[Broomd]

How did you pick up the part about me not caring about the family in his story? I said bless your heart because he believes pharma cares about cures. Would you rather me personally attacked this man and called him an idiot? I’m sure he’s an intelligent guy but my point is, everyone should be allowed to do their own risk assessment. I choose to wait and see the long term studies.


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Listen, I get your point.
You can disagree with the guy, but anyone that's knee deep in this sh t everyday watching people suffer with this virus deserves a bit of slack.

It's all politicized and ugly, but people are suffering, whether vaxed or not.

 

[NoWiser]

Listen, I get your point.
You can disagree with the guy, but anyone that's knee deep in this sh t everyday watching people suffer with this virus deserves a bit of slack.

It's all politicized and ugly, but people are suffering, whether vaxed or not.

Agreed. That comment made me sick to my stomach.

 

[BDRam16]

Or imagine not birthing a viable fetus/child because your blood vessels to your placenta clotted off and starved your child from blood flow at 28 weeks gestation. You are left with a dead fetus and now require a c-section to remove the dead fetus. Mother was unvaccinated. This just happened today at my institution a few hours ago. And yesterday, a 30 yo mother gives birth to a healthy child yet the mother dies from COVID. Also unvaccinated.

Sure Pharmaceutical companies are a business and businesses have to make money. I have learned to love and dislike them. The only reason I dislike them is because the cost passed on to the patient. But beyond that, they are making some amazing medications that hep millions of people. Is there ONE single drug in the world made that doesn’t have a side effect profile? NOPE.

Someone earlier had mentioned the Democrats were pushing the agenda, feeding the dribble to the media. I won’t give my opinion on that comment but this has indeed become a very political pandemic. However as a current Texan and a staunch Republican I can assure you what I have said and seen reported is factual.

Yes, the “goal posts” have to move. They will not stop moving until this is completely understood and the solution given is infallible. Just like anything else in life that can be improved, simplified, done more cost effectively, or have a better outcome. I would dare say there are very few topics that are 100% completely understood. We aren’t anywhere close to that scenario IMO. No the current vaccine isn’t an end all be all. It’s not a cure. At best, it’s currently drastically minimizing symptoms from an active infection, which is a huge win when comparing those currently admitted to the hospital who either have or have not been vaccinated. It’s not even close percentage wise. To claim anything more is simply false. Does the vaccine have known side effects yes, yes it does. Do we have a hospital full of vaccine side effect victims that have been admitted strictly because of their side effects. None currently where I work that I am aware of, but acknowledge a few have required further work up. What is being asked currently is to weight the known risks of COVID versus the known risks/benefits of the vaccine. The “unknown” risk is well, unknown. Anyone can make up anything and say it’s an unknown potential risk.

Its gonna be a long road ahead. As it hits closer to home and more people are able to see firsthand, instead of what is just portrayed on TV, I feel many will begin to change their minds about all of this for the better or the worse, but they will have a different perspective.

If I read correctly earlier I believe you are a surgeon? You will obviously be one of the most qualified here to speak of your experiences and I would like to share mine with you and see if you have similar experiences, although being a surgeon as opposed to a GP or ER doc I’m not sure.

Firefighter/paramedic here in a relatively large suburban setting. My county alone has more people than all of Wyoming. In 2020 and the initial COVID surge we saw a DRAMATIC decrease in call volume. People were uncertain and scared and felt the hospital was a last resort and could result in them becoming infected. We saw pretty much nothing but COVID cases, but compared to our normal daily call volume it was next to nothing.

Fast forward to now. Our call volume has absolutely SKYROCKETED. We are running more than double our average call volume daily. However, in my 15 years of experience I have never had more calls for what shouldn’t require a 911 ambulance or an ER visit. People are going for things like nausea and fever instead of staying home and using otc remedies. If someone has a cough, they are calling or going to the ER and saying they’re scared of COVID. The vast majority of what I am seeing is panic. The ER waiting rooms are absolutely full of people who will getting nothing more than a nasal swab, maybe some IV fluids, and a bill.

Obviously I don’t work on a floor or an ICU so I’m not seeing the worst of the worst. But I haven’t really had any serious COVID cases resulting in immediate treatment in an ambulance since the beginning of 2021.

I’m curious if your system has seen a similar spike in nonessential visits.

 

[Mike7]

Admittedly, everything can change.

But I think one thing being missed here, is that the current remaining benefit of these vaccines in decreasing the rate of severe illness in infected people, is primarily just found in people over 60 years old, and may require a 3rd booster to maintain this benefit. So why are govt's trying to force this even on young people "for their own good"?

There is no good evidence that these vaccines prevent transmission, and may even increase it depending upon other measures. So, why are govt's trying to force this on private companies and individuals?

 

[Mike7]

Also, vaccines are just one potential prophylactic measure. How many people in the hospital have low vitamin d levels, received an appropriately dosed med like ivermectin for instance within 5-6 days of symptom onset, etc?

Food for thought.

 

[Rob5589]

If I read correctly earlier I believe you are a surgeon? You will obviously be one of the most qualified here to speak of your experiences and I would like to share mine with you and see if you have similar experiences, although being a surgeon as opposed to a GP or ER doc I’m not sure.

Firefighter/paramedic here in a relatively large suburban setting. My county alone has more people than all of Wyoming. In 2020 and the initial COVID surge we saw a DRAMATIC decrease in call volume. People were uncertain and scared and felt the hospital was a last resort and could result in them becoming infected. We saw pretty much nothing but COVID cases, but compared to our normal daily call volume it was next to nothing.

Fast forward to now. Our call volume has absolutely SKYROCKETED. We are running more than double our average call volume daily. However, in my 15 years of experience I have never had more calls for what shouldn’t require a 911 ambulance or an ER visit. People are going for things like nausea and fever instead of staying home and using otc remedies. If someone has a cough, they are calling or going to the ER and saying they’re scared of COVID. The vast majority of what I am seeing is panic. The ER waiting rooms are absolutely full of people who will getting nothing more than a nasal swab, maybe some IV fluids, and a bill.

Obviously I don’t work on a floor or an ICU so I’m not seeing the worst of the worst. But I haven’t really had any serious COVID cases resulting in immediate treatment in an ambulance since the beginning of 2021.

I’m curious if your system has seen a similar spike in nonessential visits.

Same where I am at brother. Call volume is off the hook. Last Monday we had over 600 calls and transported over 400 in a 24 hr period. Tons of BS calls, far more than I have seen in 29 years. ED's are jammed, 2-4 hr wall times are the norm at several facilities. We are likely going back to refusing transport outright for non emergent pts.

 

[Rob960]

Do you know anywhere that posts this data online? I am trying to find numbers from the US, I found Israel and UK data, but nothing in my area. Several news stories have posted stats, but no corresponding citations.

PA DOH posts it online as all of the hospitals submit daily reports. You may also want to check Johns Hopkins as they have a massive database.

 

[redcorn65]

Agreed. That comment made me sick to my stomach.

That’s fair. I apologize for that comment. This topic is highly politicized and a touchy subject for all. I was wrong and I will shut my trap now.


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[Rob960]

The big questions isn't vaccines but how this came about. First they slammed Trump for saying it came from the lab that it came from the market. Now it is the most plausible theory, even though they insist it was an accidental release. Yet the military lab is right there.

More is being learned on this virus and how quickly it changes and its efficiency in spreading. Sounds like an engineered thing to me.

 

[5MilesBack]

This topic is highly politicized and a touchy subject for all.

The only thing political about it is whether this actually is the United States of America still, and we still have our liberties and freedoms intact. Making our own health and medical decisions is one of the most basic freedoms and rights that we have as human beings and Americans. Of course the government already knows that.

 

[mitchellbk]

Or imagine not birthing a viable fetus/child because your blood vessels to your placenta clotted off and starved your child from blood flow at 28 weeks gestation. You are left with a dead fetus and now require a c-section to remove the dead fetus. Mother was unvaccinated. This just happened today at my institution a few hours ago. And yesterday, a 30 yo mother gives birth to a healthy child yet the mother dies from COVID. Also unvaccinated.

This is sad. But, maternal and pregnancy related deaths have doubled in the past century and have significantly increased in the past 30 years. Nobody has an answer for it, or did COVID exist since 1987?

 

[AK Troutbum]

In an earlier post, you stated that you had already had Covid and still got the vaccine.

I am wondering if you believe in herd immunity sans vaccine and if you have read the reports that natural immunity outlasts vaccine immunity and if so, why did you feel it important to inject yourself with a foreign substance when you already had some level of natural immunity?

Also, in the example above you talk about pregnant women dying or their children dying when there are numerous reports of Facebook groups (that were quickly banned) and other groups of expecting mothers who experienced near-instantaneous miscarriage after taking the vaccine - a focus group that has not even been tested for adverse effects. Even the recent "approval" is only for 16 years and up meaning the vaccine is most likely dangerous for infants i.e. fetuses. How do you square that circle?

For others out there that have already been infected, why would it be important to get the vaccine given the numerous studies that show the efficacy of natural infection to be better than a vaccine that will soon require a 3rd booster shot?

Genuinely interested in your opinion given that according to VAERS there have been over 60K adverse reactions and 12K deaths after taking the jab.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but I am an ICU nurse (have been for the last 25 years), and I have taken care of a few Covid patients over the last year and a half, in our ICU. I just took care of a patient that had Covid back in January (and he fully recovered), before any vaccine was available to him. Than when a vaccine was available for him, his physician told him that he did not need it because he already had Covid, and had the antibodies. He died two days ago of Covid in my ICU.


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[isocyanate]

This is sad. But, maternal and pregnancy related deaths have doubled in the past century and have significantly increased in the past 30 years. Nobody has an answer for it, or did COVID exist since 1987?

Citation?

 

[5MilesBack]

I am by no means an expert on the subject, but I am an ICU nurse (have been for the last 25 years), and I have taken care of a few Covid patients over the last year and a half, in our ICU. I just took care of a patient that had Covid back in January (and he fully recovered), before any vaccine was available to him. Than when a vaccine was available for him, his physician told him that he did not need it because he already had Covid, and had the antibodies. He died two days ago of Covid in my ICU.

See......with or without antibodies......it's still a crapshoot either way. When it's your time to go, it's your time to go. And none of us can control that. Now it's about time for something even riskier than unvaccinated Covid........some solo elk hunting. Disclaimer: As far as I know, that's still my choice as of now........either way, I'm going.......Lord willing.

 

[mitchellbk]

Citation?

Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Pregnancy complications may be caused by conditions women have before pregnancy or conditions women develop during pregnancy. Understanding rates and trends in the data can be used to identify opportunities to prevent and manage pregnancy complications and improve care for pregnant women

www.cdc.gov

 

[Theringworm]

redcorn65, my apologies if you felt my reply was a personal attack. It was not. Simply a different perspective. As Broomd said, this is a very political and hotly contested topic. I am NOT an expert here, simply someone involved with it almost daily and simply giving credence to what I see or what is or is not being reported. I do appreciate all opinions and no one should feel like they cant contribute without retribution. Moving on...

gelton, you have some excellent points. To answer some of your questions.

I have never had COVID. My wife and oldest son (17 yo) both have had it, both prior to vaccination. My wife then got it a 2nd time after vaccination. My oldest son got it again but he had not been vaccinated yet. Looking back, when the vaccine first came out I was uncertain of how I would proceed. The morning I was scheduled to get the shot my thought process was, if I had had a prior infection and still had circulating antibodies I was going to wait until a later point before getting vaccinated. Surprisingly, my test was negative. So, I got the vaccine. The simple reason was at that point and time it was all hands on deck caring for patients. Me being down and unable to work would affect the work force available to provide the care needed. I knew I was low risk, at worse hopefully would have only gotten mild symptoms but would be forced to stay home for 14 days placing a huge burden on my partners. Additionally, if my symptoms were severe, I couldn't stomach the thought of looking my wife and kids in the face and possibly not coming back home. So admittedly, there was some fear on my part (whether likely or unlikely at that point and time) that pushed me to get the vaccine. It was not mandated by my hospital to do so. Sars viruses aren't something new and have been around for years. I was comfortable in my choice and the data I had seen thus far.

I do believe in herd immunity, however......I believe achieving that with this virus may be difficult. I don't know if we can maintain and antibody level long enough to achieve it. What we don't know, and I am not certain anyone is capturing this data, or at least doesn't have enough data to make a statement on it is this...... What Natural antibody level do we become at risk of infection/transmission. You are correct regarding the reports that natural immunity outlasts vaccine immunity. The Israel study is showing an 8 month immunity from the vaccine currently hence all of the discussion about a booster after 8 months. The natural immunity has shown to outlast that.....based on the numbers. But what I want to know is at what antibody level does that natural immunity equate to NO immunity. Is it a level of 400 , 100, 50. So yes, you may have had COVID before and have "natural immunity" but is it effective immunity? Obvious at certain antibody levels it is, but when is it not? We don't know. And unfortunately to capture this data requires an inordinate amount of time, inconvenience and money.

Regarding the obstetrical subset of patients, there is good data but not enough of it yet. I know at our institution and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology are recommending vaccination if pregnant as pregnancy has an increased risk of poor outcome with a COVID transmission. Pfizer is available for 12 and up, Moderna is 18 and up. J&J I don't know about but would not recommend it over the other two. Current studies show no increased risk of miscarriage's during the first trimester if one has had the vaccine. I didn't do the research so......that's all I can say regarding that. In those that haven't been vaccinated and have contracted COVID, most do well. We have had roughly 10 in the past month require intubation and placed on a ventilator. We have had several fetal demises early in their gestation due to clotting of the vessels to the placenta. Breastfeeding vaccinated moms have shown to pass antibodies to the child aiding in their immunity and as of to date, breastfeeding is encouraged for vaccinated mothers. I am unaware of any studies that refute this recommendation.

For those who already have natural immunity and the need for vaccination. This goes back to my prior statement. You may have an antibody level, but, is that level enough to prevent an infection? No one can give us a minimum number for what antibody level you need to have for it to be effective. Until they can, I would personally recommend it.

Our admissions are true hospital admission that are requiring oxygen/ventilatory support. We don't have room to treat runny noses, nausea, headaches like some of you EMTs are talking about and increased call volumes. I am sure our call volumes are up to, but they all get triaged and if it can be managed safely at home you go home.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT an expert in virology or epidemiology. This is simply my opinion, this is not professional medical advice. Do your research, educate yourself, make a choice. At the end of the day, I'll hunt and be friends with anyone no matter your vaccinated status.

 

[Customweld]

redcorn65, my apologies if you felt my reply was a personal attack. It was not. Simply a different perspective. As Broomd said, this is a very political and hotly contested topic. I am NOT an expert here, simply someone involved with it almost daily and simply giving credence to what I see or what is or is not being reported. I do appreciate all opinions and no one should feel like they cant contribute without retribution. Moving on...

gelton, you have some excellent points. To answer some of your questions.

I have never had COVID. My wife and oldest son (17 yo) both have had it, both prior to vaccination. My wife then got it a 2nd time after vaccination. My oldest son got it again but he had not been vaccinated yet. Looking back, when the vaccine first came out I was uncertain of how I would proceed. The morning I was scheduled to get the shot my thought process was, if I had had a prior infection and still had circulating antibodies I was going to wait until a later point before getting vaccinated. Surprisingly, my test was negative. So, I got the vaccine. The simple reason was at that point and time it was all hands on deck caring for patients. Me being down and unable to work would affect the work force available to provide the care needed. I knew I was low risk, at worse hopefully would have only gotten mild symptoms but would be forced to stay home for 14 days placing a huge burden on my partners. Additionally, if my symptoms were severe, I couldn't stomach the thought of looking my wife and kids in the face and possibly not coming back home. So admittedly, there was some fear on my part (whether likely or unlikely at that point and time) that pushed me to get the vaccine. It was not mandated by my hospital to do so. Sars viruses aren't something new and have been around for years. I was comfortable in my choice and the data I had seen thus far.

I do believe in herd immunity, however......I believe achieving that with this virus may be difficult. I don't know if we can maintain and antibody level long enough to achieve it. What we don't know, and I am not certain anyone is capturing this data, or at least doesn't have enough data to make a statement on it is this...... What Natural antibody level do we become at risk of infection/transmission. You are correct regarding the reports that natural immunity outlasts vaccine immunity. The Israel study is showing an 8 month immunity from the vaccine currently hence all of the discussion about a booster after 8 months. The natural immunity has shown to outlast that.....based on the numbers. But what I want to know is at what antibody level does that natural immunity equate to NO immunity. Is it a level of 400 , 100, 50. So yes, you may have had COVID before and have "natural immunity" but is it effective immunity? Obvious at certain antibody levels it is, but when is it not? We don't know. And unfortunately to capture this data requires an inordinate amount of time, inconvenience and money.

Regarding the obstetrical subset of patients, there is good data but not enough of it yet. I know at our institution and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology are recommending vaccination if pregnant as pregnancy has an increased risk of poor outcome with a COVID transmission. Pfizer is available for 12 and up, Moderna is 18 and up. J&J I don't know about but would recommend it over the other two. Current studies show no increased risk of miscarriage's during the first trimester if one has had the vaccine. I didn't do the research so......that's all I can say regarding that. In those that haven't been vaccinated and have contracted COVID, most do well. We have had roughly 10 in the past month require intubation and placed on a ventilator. We have had several fetal demises early in their gestation due to clotting of the vessels to the placenta. Breastfeeding vaccinated moms have shown to pass antibodies to the child aiding in their immunity and as of to date, breastfeeding is encouraged for vaccinated mothers. I am unaware of any studies that refute this recommendation.

For those who already have natural immunity and the need for vaccination. This goes back to my prior statement. You may have an antibody level, but, is that level enough to prevent an infection? No one can give us a minimum number for what antibody level you need to have for it to be effective. Until they can, I would personally recommend it.

Our admissions are true hospital admission that are requiring oxygen/ventilatory support. We don't have room to treat runny noses, nausea, headaches like some of you EMTs are talking about and increased call volumes. I am sure our call volumes are up to, but they all get triaged and if it can be managed safely at home you go home.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT an expert in virology or epidemiology. This is simply my opinion, this is not professional medical advice. Do your research, educate yourself, make a choice. At the end of the day, I'll hunt and be friends with anyone no matter your vaccinated status.

Well, thought out and written response. You weighed your options and made the best choice suited to you and those around you.

 

[MattB]

**The vaccine, does however, prevent severe disease/hospitalization/death. For now anyway**

I think you missed that part of my statement.

He was pointing out that your last statement contradicts your premise, "Hard to make an argument, anymore, for the vaccine.". If the vaccines ONLY reduce severe illness and death (but the vaccinated can still get it and pass it), it is pretty easy to continue to support the vaccine roll-out.

 

[gelton]

redcorn65, my apologies if you felt my reply was a personal attack. It was not. Simply a different perspective. As Broomd said, this is a very political and hotly contested topic. I am NOT an expert here, simply someone involved with it almost daily and simply giving credence to what I see or what is or is not being reported. I do appreciate all opinions and no one should feel like they cant contribute without retribution. Moving on...

gelton, you have some excellent points. To answer some of your questions.

I have never had COVID. My wife and oldest son (17 yo) both have had it, both prior to vaccination. My wife then got it a 2nd time after vaccination. My oldest son got it again but he had not been vaccinated yet. Looking back, when the vaccine first came out I was uncertain of how I would proceed. The morning I was scheduled to get the shot my thought process was, if I had had a prior infection and still had circulating antibodies I was going to wait until a later point before getting vaccinated. Surprisingly, my test was negative. So, I got the vaccine. The simple reason was at that point and time it was all hands on deck caring for patients. Me being down and unable to work would affect the work force available to provide the care needed. I knew I was low risk, at worse hopefully would have only gotten mild symptoms but would be forced to stay home for 14 days placing a huge burden on my partners. Additionally, if my symptoms were severe, I couldn't stomach the thought of looking my wife and kids in the face and possibly not coming back home. So admittedly, there was some fear on my part (whether likely or unlikely at that point and time) that pushed me to get the vaccine. It was not mandated by my hospital to do so. Sars viruses aren't something new and have been around for years. I was comfortable in my choice and the data I had seen thus far.

I do believe in herd immunity, however......I believe achieving that with this virus may be difficult. I don't know if we can maintain and antibody level long enough to achieve it. What we don't know, and I am not certain anyone is capturing this data, or at least doesn't have enough data to make a statement on it is this...... What Natural antibody level do we become at risk of infection/transmission. You are correct regarding the reports that natural immunity outlasts vaccine immunity. The Israel study is showing an 8 month immunity from the vaccine currently hence all of the discussion about a booster after 8 months. The natural immunity has shown to outlast that.....based on the numbers. But what I want to know is at what antibody level does that natural immunity equate to NO immunity. Is it a level of 400 , 100, 50. So yes, you may have had COVID before and have "natural immunity" but is it effective immunity? Obvious at certain antibody levels it is, but when is it not? We don't know. And unfortunately to capture this data requires an inordinate amount of time, inconvenience and money.

Regarding the obstetrical subset of patients, there is good data but not enough of it yet. I know at our institution and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology are recommending vaccination if pregnant as pregnancy has an increased risk of poor outcome with a COVID transmission. Pfizer is available for 12 and up, Moderna is 18 and up. J&J I don't know about but would recommend it over the other two. Current studies show no increased risk of miscarriage's during the first trimester if one has had the vaccine. I didn't do the research so......that's all I can say regarding that. In those that haven't been vaccinated and have contracted COVID, most do well. We have had roughly 10 in the past month require intubation and placed on a ventilator. We have had several fetal demises early in their gestation due to clotting of the vessels to the placenta. Breastfeeding vaccinated moms have shown to pass antibodies to the child aiding in their immunity and as of to date, breastfeeding is encouraged for vaccinated mothers. I am unaware of any studies that refute this recommendation.

For those who already have natural immunity and the need for vaccination. This goes back to my prior statement. You may have an antibody level, but, is that level enough to prevent an infection? No one can give us a minimum number for what antibody level you need to have for it to be effective. Until they can, I would personally recommend it.

Our admissions are true hospital admission that are requiring oxygen/ventilatory support. We don't have room to treat runny noses, nausea, headaches like some of you EMTs are talking about and increased call volumes. I am sure our call volumes are up to, but they all get triaged and if it can be managed safely at home you go home.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT an expert in virology or epidemiology. This is simply my opinion, this is not professional medical advice. Do your research, educate yourself, make a choice. At the end of the day, I'll hunt and be friends with anyone no matter your vaccinated status.

Thanks! Another piece of news that has been slowly coming out is the thought that it is the vaccinated which are causing the varients not the other way around...even Bloomberg touched on it and the CDC hinted about it today...Also, NPR (of all people) reported on this in February.

I respect your opinion and well thought out response but like you mention the jury is still out on so much of this that I will stand by and hopefully stay a spectator instead of being in the ring so to speak:

Vaccines Could Drive The Evolution Of More COVID-19 Mutants

Mutant coronaviruses can make vaccines less effective. At the same time, vaccines can contribute to virus mutations, but this is a slow process that should be manageable.

www.npr.org