What's up with the point burning in CO?

[Back Country Hunter 2]

Thanks. All of our draw hunts here where preference points are awarded are just a single hunt. The ones that allow you 1-4 choices award no preference points.

Yeah. Each state is different. I don't know jack about hunting in Florida.

 

[Bl704]

I read (I beleive on the forum) that there was a 125% increase in the amount of PP purchased this year. Now, don't take that as gospel becuase I did not verify it but what the heck does that mean moving forward? That could turn into a 125% increase in hunting pressure.

...I've heard as high as 500%. I suspect reality is somewhere in the middle.

Fortunately there are often a finite number of tags to moderate pressure. But if you listen to the most recent meateater episode animals are being pressured well beyond the hunting.

 

[Beendare]

Point creep is inevitable... get used to it.

When some of the top units take decades to draw, it only makes sense to burn points to get a hunt in.

EDIT; ^ looking back over my comment, sounds harsh...but its the reality. Who has the patience to wait 25 years for a good elk tag? There are going to be more and more point holders coming to that realization in coming years...thus the units that didn't take but a couple points to draw a few years ago will climb accordingly.

 

[ckleeves]

I think more and more guys are viewing Colorado points for what they are. Fairly worthless. Looking at some of the points required to get into certain areas is crazy. I think guys have decided they can kill a better buck in unit xyz and hunt it twice rather then chase some of the well known units indefinitely with point creep.

 

[sndmn11]

Apparently a lot of folks are forgetting that half the state has over the counter elk tags if the draw system is truly so ridiculous....

 

[5MilesBack]

Apparently a lot of folks are forgetting that half the state has over the counter elk tags if the draw system is truly so ridiculous....

Nobody is forgetting.......they and everyone else are already out there. But that OTC elk tag won't get you into your draw elk unit.......and definitely won't help with your deer tag....as the OP is talking about.

 

[Redman]

I feel the pain... I was planning on taking my daughter on her first elk hunt this year and put in for a 1st Rifle unit that you could count on drawing every year with little to 0 points. We didn't draw. I am scratching my head trying to figure a way to get her out there but 2nd and 3rd season would not be my choice to take a first time elk hunter.

 

[topher89]

Great thoughts from everyone.

Even though it takes time to build points, I think there were some good points about how cheap they are. Sure it took 8 years to build 8 points but you probably didn't spend that much money and were able to hunt all that time. Priorities change and sometimes its time to get in the game.

 

[sndmn11]

Nobody is forgetting.......they and everyone else are already out there. But that OTC elk tag won't get you into your draw elk unit.......and definitely won't help with your deer tag....as the OP is talking about.

I read it as venting about the draw process in general and using their recent experience with the deer draw as an example. One can still hunt deer if they want, there are thousands of deer tags leftover (7524 tags were NOT drawn) and there are in fact OTC deer licenses if one misses out on the leftover draw and chooses not to take up any of the general leftovers after that.

I also think that folks need to take some accountability in what they chose to apply for. As a simple example, the original post stated that.....

I have been able to put in the same deer application every year, 4th season as the first choice and 3rd as the second for our particular area. Basically, I could alternate drawing 3rd or 4th each year. Get a 3rd season tag and point one year, draw a 4th the next.

So, obviously there is an awareness that other folks are applying for the tag, and there is a knowledge that sometimes they are not successful in drawing. If one knowingly takes on the risk of not drawing the tag, why is it a surprise when sometimes they don't? If it was that important to hunt deer in that unit, it would make more sense to try the least risky option when applying. I think the least risky, or no risk at all, option is a good answer to the original question of "What's up with the point burning?"....The person knows they will draw.

 

[5MilesBack]

I think the least risky, or no risk at all, option is a good answer to the original question of "What's up with the point burning?"....The person knows they will draw.

Ya, but I see the stats every year and inevitably there is a guy (or gal) that will use 16 points on a 1 point unit. I always wonder if it's a mistake and they applied for the wrong unit or something else happened.

Other than that, I see a lot of guys dumping their points because they are in "no man's land".

But what's not acceptable is the CPW giving away resident tags to NR's this year. If you study the stats from past years they have taken some of the resident allotment for archery tags (that's all I study) in some units and added them to the NR allotment. At over $600 difference between the two, I can't help but think that they are making up some revenue.....at the expense of resident allocations. In one unit it was as high as almost two dozen tags. That's almost $15k extra this year alone for just one unit. This one is getting investigated.

 

[topher89]

So, obviously there is an awareness that other folks are applying for the tag, and there is a knowledge that sometimes they are not successful in drawing. If one knowingly takes on the risk of not drawing the tag, why is it a surprise when sometimes they don't? If it was that important to hunt deer in that unit, it would make more sense to try the least risky option when applying. I think the least risky, or no risk at all, option is a good answer to the original question of "What's up with the point burning?"....The person knows they will draw.

For sure. Of course there is a chance of not drawing but my thinking is more around those guys dumping 8 points for a 1 point unit. Sure its a slam dunk draw for them but why not slam dunk on a 6 point unit or even a 4 point unit?

 

[sndmn11]

Ya, but I see the stats every year and inevitably there is a guy (or gal) that will use 16 points on a 1 point unit. I always wonder if it's a mistake and they applied for the wrong unit or something else happened.

Other than that, I see a lot of guys dumping their points because they are in "no man's land".

But what's not acceptable is the CPW giving away resident tags to NR's this year. If you study the stats from past years they have taken some of the resident allotment for archery tags (that's all I study) in some units and added them to the NR allotment. At over $600 difference between the two, I can't help but think that they are making up some revenue.....at the expense of resident allocations. In one unit it was as high as almost two dozen tags. That's almost $15k extra this year alone for just one unit. This one is getting investigated.

I have sometimes wondered if it was a goof up too when I see those 16 for 1 in the stats. I think point creep would be non existent if it went back to only using the points that were necessary. Then A guy with 20 points could hunt a 5 point unit four years in a row. I think that would be a better earned deal than than hunting one of a few units for one year and then never again.

I would be interested in looking at those stats, can you give me an example unit or two for me to look up?

For sure. Of course there is a chance of not drawing but my thinking is more around those guys dumping 8 points for a 1 point unit. Sure its a slam dunk draw for them but why not slam dunk on a 6 point unit or even a 4 point unit?

I am kind of in that boat this year. I am familiar with a unit from archery hunting it, and the wife will be hunting this year for the first time. She wanted to last year, but we were unexpectedly pregnant. She has chosen to hunt with a rifle, and I am thankful for that because she is awfully short and I know with a tiny draw length she wouldn't sending arrows with anything behind them.

Looking at the stats over the last handful of years, she stood a 60% chance of drawing a 4th season bull tag, and a 50% chance of 3rd season deer with her 1 point from last year for both. I have not hunted a regular rifle season literally in 20 years, but have so I put in for 3rd season deer hoping that she would draw he 4th season bull tag, and we could locate some elk and study the bulls while taking a fill the freezer buck. Knowing that she may not draw either, we put in for a second choice list B private land cow tag elsewhere that had, again, about a 50% chance of being drawn as choice 2.

Well, she drew nothing, and I drew the 3rd season deer tag "burning" or "wasting" some points on a trip that will be no pressure for her, and some fun memories for us while figuring out the rifle season in a unit that we would like to hunt, and basically having a mock hunt for her. We both picked out some leftover elk tags to apply for, and will pick up some list B and maybe C deer tags. Ironically, both the tags she applied for, became EASIER to draw according to the drawn out reports.

The short of it is, if it were imperative that she would have drawn a tag, there were options to her that she could have applied for, but chose to take a little risk and end up a bit unlucky. It could turn out to be some awesome luck however, if in hindsight a season of tagging a long and us learning a rifle season together means not fumbling around doing so and wasting her tag had she drawn it.

I do appreciate the dialog, and thank you for taking my comments as that, and not in an unintended negative manner.

 

[topher89]

I have sometimes wondered if it was a goof up too when I see those 16 for 1 in the stats. I think point creep would be non existent if it went back to only using the points that were necessary. Then A guy with 20 points could hunt a 5 point unit four years in a row. I think that would be a better earned deal than than hunting one of a few units for one year and then never again.

I would be interested in looking at those stats, can you give me an example unit or two for me to look up?



I am kind of in that boat this year. I am familiar with a unit from archery hunting it, and the wife will be hunting this year for the first time. She wanted to last year, but we were unexpectedly pregnant. She has chosen to hunt with a rifle, and I am thankful for that because she is awfully short and I know with a tiny draw length she wouldn't sending arrows with anything behind them.

Looking at the stats over the last handful of years, she stood a 60% chance of drawing a 4th season bull tag, and a 50% chance of 3rd season deer with her 1 point from last year for both. I have not hunted a regular rifle season literally in 20 years, but have so I put in for 3rd season deer hoping that she would draw he 4th season bull tag, and we could locate some elk and study the bulls while taking a fill the freezer buck. Knowing that she may not draw either, we put in for a second choice list B private land cow tag elsewhere that had, again, about a 50% chance of being drawn as choice 2.

Well, she drew nothing, and I drew the 3rd season deer tag "burning" or "wasting" some points on a trip that will be no pressure for her, and some fun memories for us while figuring out the rifle season in a unit that we would like to hunt, and basically having a mock hunt for her. We both picked out some leftover elk tags to apply for, and will pick up some list B and maybe C deer tags. Ironically, both the tags she applied for, became EASIER to draw according to the drawn out reports.

The short of it is, if it were imperative that she would have drawn a tag, there were options to her that she could have applied for, but chose to take a little risk and end up a bit unlucky. It could turn out to be some awesome luck however, if in hindsight a season of tagging a long and us learning a rifle season together means not fumbling around doing so and wasting her tag had she drawn it.

I do appreciate the dialog, and thank you for taking my comments as that, and not in an unintended negative manner.

Great thoughts and comments. If I am honest, I am more annoyed that I didn't draw the tags I wanted hahaha. I did end up with a doe tag for the unit though so I will get to spend more time learning the area and still get some meat in the freezer.

It really does interest me though that people are using points on these easier to draw-low point units. Your example does not seem wasteful at all. It seems like a great way to learn an area and plan for future hunts.

Good luck on your hunts this year!

 

[vanish]

I have sometimes wondered if it was a goof up too when I see those 16 for 1 in the stats. I think point creep would be non existent if it went back to only using the points that were necessary. Then A guy with 20 points could hunt a 5 point unit four years in a row. I think that would be a better earned deal than than hunting one of a few units for one year and then never again.

Point banking is the name for that term, and it makes point creep so much worse. Rather than the guy with 20 points causing someone else to wait a single time, he causes FOUR people to wait. The fewer points it took to draw the hunt, the more people it impacts.

 

[sndmn11]

Point banking is the name for that term, and it makes point creep so much worse. Rather than the guy with 20 points causing someone else to wait a single time, he causes FOUR people to wait. The fewer points it took to draw the hunt, the more people it impacts.

I can see that perspective and it hadn't crossed my mind. I was thinking a long the lines of it having the potential to eliminate the high point holders by chipping away at their stash.

 

[Beendare]

Ya, but I see the stats every year and inevitably there is a guy (or gal) that will use 16 points on a 1 point unit. I always wonder if it's a mistake and they applied for the wrong unit or something else happened.
..............

.

^ thats a pretty drastic example...and fairly rare. Whats going to happen is the units that used to take 1-4 points....are going to jump up the 8-10 range. Think about it, where does 10 points for elk as a non res in Co get you? It might take a non res with 10 points another 6-7 years to draw a unit like 76 that only 5 years ago took 9-10 points to draw....now its something like 14....and climbing. Many guys are point banking without considering this.

Once they come to the realization that 8-12 points in Co is in No Mans land....its no surprise a guy fighting it out with the masses of hunters in the OTC units would elect to burn their points on a limited draw unit that has less hunters. As crazy as it sounds, the top elk units in Co are literally unattainable for a guy with 10 points now...unless he can wait 50 yrs or more for a tag. The mid tier units like 76 and 61 are climbing between 1 and 2 points every year. More applicants isn't going to make that improve.

What was happening in the past, a guy with 8 saw it took 10 points to draw certain unit...so he reasoned it will be another 2 years for a tag- false. Now its 5 years later and the guy still can't draw the tag due to point creep. This frustration is another factor with guys dumping their points and drawing a lesser unit....understandable.

This realization.....is going to cause those lower point units to climb drastically

 

[5MilesBack]

This realization.....is going to cause those lower point units to climb drastically

Ya, too bad the animals don't shoot back. That might create a little less demand for these tags and clear it out for the rest of us. Just too many people applying these days, and they didn't make it any better without any up front charges.

 

[LaGriz]

"What was happening in the past, a guy with 8 saw it took 10 points to draw certain unit...so he reasoned it will be another 2 years for a tag- false. Now its 5 years later and the guy still can't draw the tag due to point creep. This frustration is another factor with guys dumping their points and drawing a lesser unit....understandable."

As a NR this frustration is all too true. Except the part about points being cheep. I'm calling BS on this, as NR points are far from cheep. I have accumulated 19 PP for deer and 6 for elk. I burned 17 points back in 2012 on an archery hunt in unit 61. Was always a point short for other weapons as the point creep kept the goal post moving just out of reach. Although unsuccessful, I don't regret the hunt at all. I saw more elk and two of the best bulls I've ever laid eyes on. If I hadn't hunted like a pussy I may have gotten the shot with my recurve I was looking for. In hind sight, I wish I had opted for a hunt in 61 a few years before when for only one year Colorado G&F would only take the points needed to draw. May have been able to hunt that unit twice in my lifetime.

One factor you may not be accounting for is the age and health of the hunters that have the higher point totals. I'm turning 63 next month and have had some heart issues. A hunter with 5-10 points might figure its best to utilize them rather then waiting. One never knows when a health condition might put you out of the game. In some cases they may know a resident (friend or relative) that can only draw a 2-3 point tier unit. One might be inclined to burn points if it means you could enjoy a hunt with this crew that otherwise may never take place. When I started accumulating points in my late 30's my goal was a trophy bull hunt in a prime unit. A hunt with friends, and grandkids would mean more to me at this stage in my hunting life.

LaGriz

 

[5MilesBack]

One factor you may not be accounting for is the age and health of the hunters that have the higher point totals.

There are people that die every year.......still holding a bunch of points that are worthless now. Looking at the stats, I think there were two residents that applied with 34 points and still didn't draw anything. That means they put in for another point, which also means they have no intention of ever hunting any unit, as there aren't any units that take 34 points for residents. Go figure that one.