What is holding you back from competitive shooting?

[Stinky Coyote]

Stinky Coyote, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?

LOL, excellent, at first blush it would appear you have a sense of humour, that would make this a lot more fun for everyone btw. Insult it is. All good, attack the messenger strategy eh? Carry on with your superfluous ways and your Rube Goldberg Machines for this long range hunting stuff. I'm apparently living rent free now.

So in your view, a gear junky hunter who's climbed the ladder and tried it all only to come back down the other side couldn't possibly have figured some things out if he didn't compete against others? On a hunting forum, you are funny. What's that horse...17/18 hands now?

And yeah, like all y'all...I had to look that up.

Wonder how long you been sittin on that one just waiting lol.

 

[Formidilosus]

LOL, excellent, at first blush it would appear you have a sense of humour, that would make this a lot more fun for everyone btw. Insult it is. All good, attack the messenger strategy eh? Carry on with your superfluous ways and your Rube Goldberg Machines for this long range hunting stuff. I'm apparently living rent free now.

So in your view, a gear junky hunter who's climbed the ladder and tried it all only to come back down the other side couldn't possibly have figured some things out if he didn't compete against others? On a hunting forum, you are funny. What's that horse...17/18 hands now?

And yeah, like all y'all...I had to look that up.

Wonder how long you been sittin on that one just waiting lol.

You literally have never tried a thing, have no knowledge of that thing, but believe you know all about the thing. That is Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
“Climbed the ladder and tried it all” except that you have not tried it all- you are talking about something, and trying to convince others to ignore something that you have no experience in. You have a belief system that you say is based on less animals than some people kill in a single 24 hour period; and one buddy who apparently shoots small groups but is slow.

How is it that you are so convinced that you have enough information to make any decision, let alone an informed one?

I’m not trying to belittle you or say you shouldn’t discuss the topic; I’m trying get you to ask yourself if it’s possible that you don’t have enough information and/or experience in the entire subject to have such strong beliefs?

 

[Dobermann]

Coyote vs form is the best thing on the internet. Never disappoints

Yes it does.

About 50% of the time.

 

[5MilesBack]

The only thing holding me back is desire.......interest. If I'm not into it, then I'm not into it. I actually would be into long range archery competitions, like 100+ yards, but I have no knowledge at all of any of those kind of shoots.

 

[Rainyday]

Yes it does.

About 50% of the time.

 

[Billy Goat]

I always enjoy the argument in archery, that shooting 3d doesn't help, competition shooters suck at actually killing stuff.

It's usually from the guys who miss and wound at a pretty surprising rate.


Competition isn't exactly like hunting, can't be. But it's additional higher stress shooting, which always helps, on top of just plain more practice.


It's like saying how George Digweed can't kill birds cause all he does is shoot clays.



You can of course practice on your own, but it's like being in a small town band. You won't ever get any better if you are already the best fiddler in the band. Getting around a group of others with similar interests will help you further that interest. Doesn't matter if it's shooting, climbing, cooking, or golf.

You know what pushed Chuck Adam's to be the first to complete the grand slam?

Competition with Jimmy Ryan.

 

[Kurts86]

I’ve dabbled in competitive shooting (USPSA, PRS) and belong to a good long range club but there have always been a few things holding me back from being a competitive shooter.

Time is #1. My current range is closer than I’ve ever had and it’s an hour away. I have 2 kids under 3 and a wife that works 80 hours a week so childcare is almost on me. My previous range was 2 hours away so just driving to the range was a half day activity. Right now I’m happy if I can get 2 hours to myself at the range once a month. It’s something I like and I’m setup well enough for NRL matches but yeah time….Before I had kids I race bikes competitively and that sucked up all my time when I wasn’t hunting.

As far as matches go I can’t stand waiting around for an hour or more to shoot a 60 second stage. This obviously is quite dependent on the match/venue/director but it’s universal problem in competitive shooting.

There is certainly some intimidation with the first match especially with rules/safety orientation. I faulted out of my first USPSA match and I still have no idea why. That left a pretty poor impression on me and it makes me feel like if I can shoot the first match of a series with a newbie orientation I’m way less likely to jump in mid series.

As far as NRL hunter matches go the close one for me is specifically gear to be an eastern hunting situation specific match and I have zero interests in a 3 day weekend dedicated to shooting from a treestand/ground blind. I’m the odd western hunter living in the East and such a match doesn’t interest me. I don’t like a multi day event format regardless of time. I want to bomb in, do the event and head out. The social aspect isn’t a draw for me or at least it isn’t as a new shooter.

I definitely agree with some of the comments the 12 lb division being light for NRL hunter is pretty silly. I also agree that people need to carry everything all day and cover ground between stages. A typical day of hunting for me is 8-10 miles walking so 3 miles and a few stages isn’t a lot to ask.

 

[5MilesBack]

I always enjoy the argument in archery, that shooting 3d doesn't help, competition shooters suck at actually killing stuff.

Even on a local level, most all of the guys I compete with are killing machines.

 

[Formidilosus]

I always enjoy the argument in archery, that shooting 3d doesn't help, competition shooters suck at actually killing stuff.

It's usually from the guys who miss and wound at a pretty surprising rate.


Competition isn't exactly like hunting, can't be. But it's additional higher stress shooting, which always helps, on top of just plain more practice.


It's like saying how George Digweed can't kill birds cause all he does is shoot clays.



You can of course practice on your own, but it's like being in a small town band. You won't ever get any better if you are already the best fiddler in the band. Getting around a group of others with similar interests will help you further that interest. Doesn't matter if it's shooting, climbing, cooking, or golf.

You know what pushed Chuck Adam's to be the first to complete the grand slam?

Competition with Jimmy Ryan.

One doesn’t have to go all in in competition to get great benefit from it for hunting. Far from it. My significant other uses her hunting rifles (primarily a T3 SL in 223 and a 6x SWFA) in PRS/long range field matches, with no bipod: only her hiking sticks and her backpack- the things she actually has hunting. It’s an 8lb rifle shot off of an backpack and has never placed last. Hell I used one just like it a decade ago to place 2nd in a bigger field match. Granted very few shots were past 800, but still- most decent medium range hunting rifles can be shot well.
No, you’re probably not going to win against full up competitors, but that has less to do with the rifle than the fact that they are better at the match than you- so what?


The other piece that Coyote Stinker and others bring up is the “practice on your own is just as good/better” then competition.

First- no, it’s not for the reasons you mentioned and the fact of human psychology that we generally only do what we like, and we only remember our successes while lying to ourselves about our competencies.

Second, the vast, VAST, majority of people have no place where they can shoot at distance and even fewer have a place where they can shoot at distance from a position other than benched. This board is absolutely chock full of people that are looking for an “800 yard elk rifle” that have never shot past 300 yards, let alone shot enough past 300 yards to be competent in any manner. For the vast majority of people the only way they will get practice is to shoot matches.


The base answer is this- for any one that wants to be competent at hunting- especially western mountain hunting, they should be practiced and competent shooters, relatively fit, and comfortable backpackers (if that fits how they hunt), and understand game. There is no excuse for not being a good shooter, nor for not being fit enough to retrieve and track game as necessary. There is no way I would take a 500 yard shot in the mountains unless I had shot hundreds of times in identical, or near identical conditions, speed, and positions: and done so recently.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

You literally have never tried a thing, have no knowledge of that thing, but believe you know all about the thing. That is Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
“Climbed the ladder and tried it all” except that you have not tried it all- you are talking about something, and trying to convince others to ignore something that you have no experience in. You have a belief system that you say is based on less animals than some people kill in a single 24 hour period; and one buddy who apparently shoots small groups but is slow.

How is it that you are so convinced that you have enough information to make any decision, let alone an informed one?

I’m not trying to belittle you or say you shouldn’t discuss the topic; I’m trying get you to ask yourself if it’s possible that you don’t have enough information and/or experience in the entire subject to have such strong beliefs?

My walls and freezer and the many people I've helped fill tags to and introduce to hunting over the past few decades disagree with your assumption I haven't done anything. Somebody here is bragging and it's not me. You feel volume of the same thing over and over is the only way to be good? or have a full understanding? Well carry on then and keep trying to tell people they could never live up to your awesomeness because they don't do the same thing over and over. For this game you don't have to go that hard, you can have a life and do a bunch of other things. Like while guys were shooting 3d's in winter I was out calling coyotes, better practice for big game hunting or hunting period than anything your competitions will give you...that was 10-12 years obsessive every winter straight...but hey you're the man right?

The dunning-kruger effect, people of low ability or expertise or experience in something and over estimate their ability or knowledge. Not me, not me, not me, not me. And I have proven this to competitive shooters before, just not you, could care less at this point in life to do it again, the outcome is known while you are making assumptions. More importantly the field success I've had over the decades which maybe you don't know as I don't speak much on it anymore as I'm without ego there. I engage in these topics on experience and the topic itself, not to blowhard what a rockstar I thought I was. How old are you? You appear to need to check your ego. Apparently because you have volume advantage on culling ungulates etc. that means you understand it more and can speak with more superiority to those who have a much more diverse and full life and dabbled in more than just smashing gophers over and over...I mean elk or steel squares.

You think it's that hard to get proficient afield to 450-600? That you need your kind of unrealistic volume to be the only voice or to be the 'best way' to be good at this. Not a chance that's correct. Volume isn't thee answer, it's just an answer, competition isn't thee answer (unless against yourself is included), it's just another answer, less of the right practice is far more beneficial, less is more on gear selections as well. Not hard to do too much and lose your confidence, open that can of worms trying to get back to square. Not hard to over complicate things and get lost in rabbit holes.

You haven't figured out minimums required yet, just go go go, kill as much as you can, shoot as much as you can, compete against others as much as you can...volume is the only way. But you're wrong in this assessment and trying to discredit the message by going after the messenger, old hat, people always move to this when they simple refuse to agree with someone or see their perspective and experience due to some ego issue. I've been called out and showed up with my simple solo set up and you'd be a fool to bet against me when it's time to fill a tag, just as I wouldn't underestimate you but I'd never waste my time calling you or anyone out. If you think a guy can't hang with you in the field because he doesn't do 30-40 elk a year or compete then you live in fantasy land. You seem hell bent on going after the messenger by any means possible and right now your method is the volume you kill, and or, shooting competition vs the common man who can think and do solo. See right through it.

It's been telling over time here 'discussing' with you about some of these things. You have an ego and superiority that is unquestionable eh? Whatever. Bet you've never said sorry to anyone for anything. Some 'disorders' coming to mind that could apply to you here and we could get right into some psychological digging if you wanna continue on this path which you started btw with your false assumptions.

There's enough people around here that been around long enough to see all the crap I killed and posted about all the time. Some from other forums local that go back before I ever came here. I'm way beyond that phase, and zero desire to focus on my accomplishments but rather keep perspectives on some of these topics from my own experiences. I built lots of moderate to long range rigs, used them in many field situations, tried all the methods for elevation and wind corrections. You come down the other side and you remove the fat and you find there is realistic ranges of proficiency that no matter how much extra you do or carry...you're fighting a losing battle and spending way too much time trying to get an extra percent, and then you realize don't need much in terms of method or gear to get there. If you continue to focus on me rather than the topic you'll end up wrong, and wrong again, etc. It's not a good strategy. You're not the only cat in town who's figured this shit out.

I don't really care to dive in on you psychologically and you shouldn't try to do that to others, you may not end up the most prepared guy in the room. Your lack of humility is somewhat telling though. Want to get the microscope pointing at you then captain volume with zero humility?

Where were we? Oh yeah...shooting competitions against random people being best way to be a good long range hunter....eh...wrong.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Even on a local level, most all of the guys I compete with are killing machines.

lots of respectable shooters and killers running around, anyone know their names? think they'd be less deadly afield if they didn't compete? or do most compete for the sake of it and something to do

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I always enjoy the argument in archery, that shooting 3d doesn't help, competition shooters suck at actually killing stuff.

It's usually from the guys who miss and wound at a pretty surprising rate.


Competition isn't exactly like hunting, can't be. But it's additional higher stress shooting, which always helps, on top of just plain more practice.


It's like saying how George Digweed can't kill birds cause all he does is shoot clays.



You can of course practice on your own, but it's like being in a small town band. You won't ever get any better if you are already the best fiddler in the band. Getting around a group of others with similar interests will help you further that interest. Doesn't matter if it's shooting, climbing, cooking, or golf.

You know what pushed Chuck Adam's to be the first to complete the grand slam?

Competition with Jimmy Ryan.

point of diminishing returns, Form already confirmed in actual hunting 450 a pretty decent soft limit and rare are those who consistently kill past 600, and you need to compete and prs and use all this gear that helps you hit small squares beyond all those ranges? nah, you can go far less on time and gear and spend that time chasing coyotes, or ice fishing lol, as you're not gonna get enough better in competition to be worth the squeeze when it comes to on game performance

was he competing with randoms on the regular, actual competitions on targets? not even an argument, not likely his drive to beat jimmy at a hunting pursuit that led him to his status, people like to create competition where there isn't any, chuck was gonna win without even knowing there was a game as he was hunt focused, not a bad attempt but that's not the competing we're talking about here

 

[*zap*]

lack of ability....

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I always enjoy the argument in archery, that shooting 3d doesn't help, competition shooters suck at actually killing stuff.

yet its a known and often observed phenomenon, doesn't just apply to archery/3d, game has a way of exposing range pros, some transition ok on game, lots don't, commonly observed over time, again, had my own 3d targets, shot and prepared on my own, killed as well or better than those who shot 3d's, when you compete against yourself there's no lying, you know what you can and can't do and you push yourself to be better, half of my dozen pope muley's came after 50 yards, always practiced that cold body 1st shot starting at 50 leading up to the opener, many times early in career over shot, lost confidence, chased solutions...just needed to slow down, do less of the right set up, deadly af to 70, only reference to know how I'd do against others is a buddy who 3d a ton and when we shoot together on farm there was no questions, we both learned the gear and our limits fairly equally to the same distances...would I have been better with competing against randoms instead of myself? maybe, maybe not, maybe the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze and I could chase coyotes all winter and set up another rifle...which is usually what I did

 

[Wrongside]

Even on a local level, most all of the guys I compete with are killing machines.

Same here. I’m not a super serious PRS/NRL competitor, but really enjoy the (sometimes humiliating) challenge and learning of competing, and try to shoot 2-4 club matches a year, and 1-2 ‘national’ level (western Canadian) matches annually. Most of the guys I compete with, who are hunters, are absolute killers in the field. And contrary to SC’s assertions, competing has helped make me a much better shot and hunter.

 

[Billy Goat]

point of diminishing returns, Form already confirmed in actual hunting 450 a pretty decent soft limit and rare are those who consistently kill past 600, and you need to compete and prs and use all this gear that helps you hit small squares beyond all those ranges? nah, you can go far less on time and gear and spend that time chasing coyotes, or ice fishing lol, as you're not gonna get enough better in competition to be worth the squeeze when it comes to on game performance

was he competing with randoms on the regular, actual competitions on targets? not even an argument, not likely his drive to beat jimmy at a hunting pursuit that led him to his status, people like to create competition where there isn't any, chuck was gonna win without even knowing there was a game as he was hunt focused, not a bad attempt but that's not the competing we're talking about here

Clearly you have read Chucks books then....


He was spending money hand over fist, money he didn't have, just to do it before Jimmy.
So yes, it was competition that drove it, and you know what? Probably what made him. Cause nobody has hardly cared about anyone after, sponsor wise.


Point is competition improves you, forces you to improve. While not directly applicable, it's still applicable.

Suppose Randy Ulmer would have been the same tier of hunter without competition as well?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

The other piece that Coyote Stinker and others bring up is the “practice on your own is just as good/better” then competition.

First- no, it’s not for the reasons you mentioned and the fact of human psychology that we generally only do what we like, and we only remember our successes while lying to ourselves about our competencies.

Wrong, do people really lie to themselves? There's no harsher critic or motivating drive than competing against myself to be absolutely proficient where I wanted to be proficient. I need zero approval or push from others to be just as ready as you and or partner. The rest of that post was spot on, agree with you completely, and very much how I prepare before a season and how anyone else can prepare also. So I absolutely disagree with that. Maybe I don't understand people would actually lie to themselves while setting up solo? I can't grasp that, like I can't grasp why a guy would put another guys trophy on his wall and act like it's his. I would take my gongs to same elevations, same country I'd hunt, and make sure I was dialled in before seasons and it doesn't take hundreds of rounds or competitions. Very little of the very right prep and practice is just as deadly.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Clearly you have read Chucks books then....


He was spending money hand over fist, money he didn't have, just to do it before Jimmy.
So yes, it was competition that drove it, and you know what? Probably what made him. Cause nobody has hardly cared about anyone after, sponsor wise.


Point is competition improves you, forces you to improve. While not directly applicable, it's still applicable.

Suppose Randy Ulmer would have been the same tier of hunter without competition as well?

any trophies that weren't animals won by chuck or jimmy? he did a lot more than just the slam, did they go head to head after same animal with audience and time limit? you know...competition as we're discussing here, to get better at 'hunting'

Randy's killed some slobs, he may be one of the few that get elite at both ends, did he win any nationals etc. and why is it I can only see the giant velvet muley's in my mind and didn't see anything else in the magazines etc.? Something tells me he's one more than the other and wouldn't have needed the other to be the one. But is Randy just a muley guy and a competition guy? Like is his wall gonna be anywhere near some of the others outside the slob muley's? Archie, can he run with archie or chuck? no

 

[Billy Goat]

yet its a known and often observed phenomenon, doesn't just apply to archery/3d, game has a way of exposing range pros, some transition ok on game, lots don't, commonly observed over time, again, had my own 3d targets, shot and prepared on my own, killed as well or better than those who shot 3d's, when you compete against yourself there's no lying, you know what you can and can't do and you push yourself to be better, half of my dozen pope muley's came after 50 yards, always practiced that cold body 1st shot starting at 50 leading up to the opener, many times early in career over shot, lost confidence, chased solutions...just needed to slow down, do less of the right set up, deadly af to 70, only reference to know how I'd do against others is a buddy who 3d a ton and when we shoot together on farm there was no questions, we both learned the gear and our limits fairly equally to the same distances...would I have been better with competing against randoms instead of myself? maybe, maybe not, maybe the juice wouldn't be worth the squeeze and I could chase coyotes all winter and set up another rifle...which is usually what I did

See, the problem is you assume you know you killed just as well.... I don't think you know jack.


And there's lots of lying when you compete against yourself, you are probably the archer that shoots a 3" group everytime at 30. I have noticed on the internet everyone can until they get out on a range. Doesn't matter if you pulled it or not, it was still a flier.


Now, in all this I'm not saying you aren't a successful hunter, I'm sure you kill stuff, and likely routinely. However I think you would be surprised how shooting competitively (where you actually keep scores, track how you shoot) you can improve. I simply say that because I see it happen all the time, in archery. I'm just some jack wagon with a gun, at one time I thought I knew what I was doing with one, but realized how little I really knew outside of shooting small groups at yards.

 

[Lawnboi]

You guys are arguing with a wall, someone who has never done the subject we are talking about.

I could brag about how much I know about water polo too but truth is Iv never done any of it in my life.