What is holding you back from competitive shooting?

[Stinky Coyote]

See, the problem is you assume you know you killed just as well.... I don't think you know jack.


And there's lots of lying when you compete against yourself, you are probably the archer that shoots a 3" group everytime at 30. I have noticed on the internet everyone can until they get out on a range. Doesn't matter if you pulled it or not, it was still a flier.


Now, in all this I'm not saying you aren't a successful hunter, I'm sure you kill stuff, and likely routinely. However I think you would be surprised how shooting competitively (where you actually keep scores, track how you shoot) you can improve. I simply say that because I see it happen all the time, in archery. I'm just some jack wagon with a gun, at one time I thought I knew what I was doing with one, but realized how little I really knew outside of shooting small groups at yards.

I was on the outside edge of the whole crew of top guys in 3d that hunted hardcore, saw all the pics every season, they saw mine, I shot coyotes in winter, they liked 3d, but my walls are stellar and killed some slob muley's. Actually had a run on p&y muley's of 12 in 13 seasons with a couple over 200, yeah I was competitive through my trophy phase...against myself and the animals, got fairly driven by inches, was happy to see others successes and don't worry, I wasn't lacking for having pics that went around also.

Hell I rarely even shoot 3 shot groups anymore with rifles, and archery I only shot 2 at time, it's not hard to erode confidence trying to get the tiny group when learned the focus isn't on that but rather is the arrow landing where the pin was when dropping string, easy enough to do two on top of each other but the 3rd always elusive and not hunt focused prep, we don't shoot groups at the animals.

And not arguing competition can't be helpful for many but it was stated here by someone as 'the best way' and I completely disagree....UNLESS...competition against yourself is included in that definition.

 

[Billy Goat]

I was on the outside edge of the whole crew of top guys in 3d that hunted hardcore, saw all the pics every season, they saw mine, I shot coyotes in winter, they liked 3d, but my walls are stellar and killed some slob muley's. Actually had a run on p&y muley's of 12 in 13 seasons with a couple over 200, yeah I was competitive through my trophy phase...against myself and the animals, got fairly driven by inches, was happy to see others successes and don't worry, I wasn't lacking for having pics that went around also.

Hell I rarely even shoot 3 shot groups anymore with rifles, and archery I only shot 2 at time, it's not hard to erode confidence trying to get the tiny group when learned the focus isn't on that but rather is the arrow landing where the pin was when dropping string, easy enough to do two on top of each other but the 3rd always elusive and not hunt focused prep, we don't shoot groups at the animals.

And not arguing competition can't be helpful for many but it was stated here by someone as 'the best way' and I completely disagree....UNLESS...competition against yourself is included in that definition.

Where is 3d a winter sport?

 

[SDHNTR]

Entertaining debate. I see both sides. Obviously shooting prowess is important and competition certainly helps one close the deal under pressure. To argue otherwise is just silly. But so does time in the woods and learning to outwit critters. If we’re talking about what makes a successful hunter…. I’ll take a mediocre shooter who is an excellent woodsman over an excellent shooter who is a mediocre woodsman. I think that was what Stinky was trying to say. Hell, you got to find the critter first before you can shoot it! Even if it’s 7-800 yards away. With today’s equipment the shooting is often the easy part.

The heads on my wall and the meat in my freezer are there mostly because I outsmarted the critter. Ultimately, I enjoy spending time in the woods learning about my quarry much more than I do punching paper or foam. And I do punch a lot of both too.

Put an old school trapper and his pre 64 M70 or M94 30-30 in the woods with a PRS champion and see who goes hungry. That would make a hell of a reality show!

But, if one had the time to truly dedicate to mastering both crafts, long range marksmanship AND expert woodsmanship, that would be a heck of a deadly combo. If only I had more time…

 

[Dobermann]

As far as matches go I can’t stand waiting around for an hour or more to shoot a 60 second stage. This obviously is quite dependent on the match/venue/director but it’s universal problem in competitive shooting.

Kurt, there are a lot of matches that don't have that problem.

First, don't bother looking to PRS matches.

After that, there are a bunch that might be of interest ... I'm not in the US, but from hanging out at Snipers Hide and listening to some of the better podcasts, it sounds like the following might contain one or two options that appeal:

• Local 'outlaw' matches
• Guardian matches
• Snipers Hide Cup
• Rifles Only Brawl
• Competition Dynamics
• Sniper Adventure Challenge, Mammoth, and so on - might be longer than what you're after, but these are far removed from the 'barricade benchrest' PRS-style matches
• and more ...

There are a couple of threads devoted explicitly to field-style matches over on the Hide.

I'm sure others on Rokslide will be able to add to this list.

Other than that, come to NZ - most of the matches here are all practical field matches.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Best thing to come of this thread is that we’ve better defined ‘long range hunting’. We now know it to be a mpbr to 600 yard game for majority. Anything else they should create new sub forums for ‘extreme long range hunting’ (600+), and a competitive shooting one, call it prs but that could just be the current flavor, f-class was popular not that long ago for example, so may want to label it ‘range sports’ or whatever.

It took a guy who ‘does everything’ to help define these limits, and a guy who apparently does nothing lol. It’s funny how the guy who apparently does nothing happened to come to the same conclusions. Maybe while some were out there competing against others in shooting events I was out there dialing up or reticle referencing big game to 575 and coyotes to 620 on a regular enough basis from prep on my own gongs. Just maybe. The guy who does everything and has some sort of culling volume opp. feels that he can speak on absolute authority over everyone else because no one else has that opp. Nice tall horse to sit on even if irrelevant to the now defined 'long range hunting'. Gophers don’t count, even though killed millions, coyotes don’t count, even though hunted them hard for decade or more, actually hunting year round doesn’t count. Nope you need to cull 30-40 elk a year and shoot competitively to be a competent long range hunter and someone who can speak on the subject. Right? Ok

The world has established long ago, in many things, that less is often more, that the right kind of practice, gear and prep trumps volume or rabbit holes of prep that go well past the point of diminishing returns.

Now we can boil down methods and gear to this long range hunting since it's properly identified and agreed upon. Now we know the hunting part stops before the limits of the guns/cartridges abilities for the majority. A combination of people abilities(field accuracy), live animal limitations (tof) and field conditions(wind mostly). It's no surprise that there’s a balance, or range, discovered over time. Hard to believe a solo hunting and avid gear junky and shooter could figure this out on his own by research and solo field application.

Now that we have these confirmations, this opens the door to boiling things down further for the hunting prep, gear and practice. Especially so for those who tend to be minimalist in approach and agree that hunting is best done via k.i.s.s. principles.

Not only that we should be able to do this solo, one of the guys in this discussion is solo 98% of the time (well not now as the kids have been doing a bunch of it the past few years…before kids coming of age though I was just a solo warrior when possible), the other guy seems to always be in groups. A lot of the discussion, prep and methods discussed by the guy who ‘does everything’ is a team effort, needing or assuming always a partner around etc. Is that reflective of hunting? No solo guys out there? Nah, rokslide is a place most likely to find solo back country guys. This should be doable on your own, you don’t need a common language or exact same method if you're competent solo. You can boil down a system that works for you, your psychology and preferences.

Case in point on boiling one aspect down in light of us finally agreeing on what long range hunting is; Let’s just look at a wind example real quick; 6.5 Creedmoor 140 eld-m, 4000’ elevation, 10 mph…450 yards 1.1 moa, 0.3 mil, or 5.2”. Again at 600 yards, now at the extreme limit for ideal conditions shooting for majority of hunters…600 yards 1.5 moa, 0.4 mil, 9.5”.

You could dial that in, or use reticle reference, OR use on target reference. We now have confirmation here as it’s been mentioned by others before, that our minds are wired visually and spatially so your auto-pilot in a hunting situation after the first shot will make the reticle hash marks disappear or useless…so that begs the question why start that way in the first place? I mean, if you can’t see 5” or 10” on an animal you’ve been around before then ok, dial it or do a reticle I suppose but anything after the first shot will be done subconsciously by your brain anyway if you see the miss impact. I’ve used reticle reference, and before I even knew or saw confirmation on how our brain worked I figured out quickly afield that the reticle reference goes out the winder after first shot., as confirmed here how our brains are wired. My question is...why train that way? Anyway, I’m a minimalist who boils things down…but also avid gear junky and researcher which means I try, and apply, the methods available.

So what does all this mean in simpler terms? Majority long range hunters will be shooting in the 2’ to 5.5’ holdover range (400-600) which for live animals coincides with ½ to ¾ second time of flights, and again with animals coincides with size of kill zone and typical hunters field accurancy and our desire to have a range of acceptable wiggle room within that(including they may move), then within ~1’ of wind hold which will hold all the way out to 600 as we will know we can still shoot within that with double the wind in the 450 yard range but as we get to 550-600 we will likely be far pickier about being under 10 mph to shoot at an animal or we wait for that condition or get closer. We know that our ability to read wind will only be so accurate so again will stay within acceptable wiggle room limits to make reliable to land in that kill zone.

Holding inches is actually more precise unit of measure than both moa or mil in this real world, a finer unit of measure, not to mention an institutionalized one we can see on target. And since we no longer care what units make more sense from 600 to infinity we can quit fighting over which is best, I can see benefits to moa within certain distances and then mils from there onward, for elrh or prs etc., we can learn to make them all work at the range. This 600 yard outer hunting limit is 1.5 moa, 0.4 mil, 9.5”…dial, reticle, or target reference. You can skin this cat several ways. Elevation no prob, reticle or dial, rangefinder solved that for us long ago and makes getting that right a non-issue and easier than guessing wind to within a few mph or inches on a kill zone.

Glad we finally worked this out once and for all. Now that we have solved all this…maybe the competitive shooting sports guys can give the hunters a discipline that actually mirrors this reality? Ie; Life size targets with kill zone flappers, 0-600 with maybe an 800 yard bonus coyote, 1 shot only to win the atv bonus for fun. That would mirror 3d prep for hunters who like to compete and hunt a lot better than trying to apply prs or f-class before that etc. to long range hunting. They are too far unrelated and far too commonly cross discussed and applied.

Start up an extended long range hunting forum and or competitive shooting forum and you’ll never see me even reading in there as my focus has only ever been hunting and ensuring I was capable to most limits I could find with the gear of the day. And I found em. And they’re the same as Form found. And we did it in different ways, imagine that.

Heck we even went far deeper on terminal ballistics than most and came around to shooting a shat ton less cartridge than the good ole boys can fathom and have similar understandings with our obviously different approach and way to describe it. That was other discussions but we seem to agree on both in flight ballistics related to hunting and terminal ballistics a lot more than we don't or would appear in how we discuss the topics. We just have some personality differences keeping this entertaining.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Let's get this back on track. Travis asked a simple question. "What's holding you back from competitive shooting?"

Simply stating you prefer shooting at home is fine.

Stating competitions are too far, or too expensive, or you can't get ammo is fine.

Taking over the thread to try and convince everyone that competition shooting is pointless is not needed. Post a new thread if that's what you want to talk about.

 

[Mojave]

I used to shoot F-Class and Australia's version of PRS when I lived in Canberra 10 years ago. It is an incredible time suck, but I think it helped me learn to shoot and reload at a higher level.

When the kids graduate I will start it up again.

 

[prm]

• Lack of reasonably close matches
• Finding a place to practice
• Lack of reloading components
• My rifles don’t seem to fit rules very well
• Not interested in using bags and stick I’d never have while hunting
• And I’m apparently lazy by not trying harder and overcoming these obstacles

 

[Antares]

Well, I have to eat my words. Back on page 5, I was complaining about not having easy access to any matches, but I just found out that someone is going to run NRL22 at my local range starting this spring! I'm pumped! I'm going to shoot my CZ457/SWFA in the Base Class.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well, I have to eat my words. Back on page 5, I was complaining about not having easy access to any matches, but I just found out that someone is going to run NRL22 at my local range starting this spring! I'm pumped! I'm going to shoot my CZ457/SWFA in the Base Class.

My experience is that the .22 matches are the best rifle matches running.


Are you shooting mil or MOA scopes?

 

[Antares]

Are you shooting mil or MOA scopes?

MOA

I wish I could just snap my fingers and make all my scopes (2 NF and 2 SWFA) mil. I get the advantages. I like base-10 math. I can see the light. I just can't stomach the time (backorders), money, hassle, etc. of selling all my scopes and rebuying them in mil. Not sure what to do than just suck it up and commit. I'd like to think that I could just replace them slowly, but I know myself well enough to know that once I switch one of them to mil, the MOA ones are going to bug me until I replace them too. Long story short, I know what I need to do, I'm just having trouble justifying the expense.

 

[Formidilosus]

MOA

I wish I could just snap my fingers and make all my scopes (2 NF and 2 SWFA) mil. I get the advantages. I like base-10 math. I can see the light. I just can't stomach the time (backorders), money, hassle, etc. of selling all my scopes and rebuying them in mil. Not sure what to do than just suck it up and commit. I'd like to think that I could just replace them slowly, but I know myself well enough to know that once I switch one of them to mil, the MOA ones are going to bug me until I replace them too. Long story short, I know what I need to do, I'm just having trouble justifying the expense.

Haha. Rip the bandied off.


When you/if you use mils, the wind bracket method for account for wind out to 600’ish is the jam. The cool thing, is for center fires it’s based on 100y/m increments, for .22 RF it’s the same process but in 10 yard increments- a really seamless transition between them.

 

[Alex Genereux]

Mainly time for me. We have a 600 yard soon to be 1k range 7 miles from my house.

 

[Lawnboi]

MOA

I wish I could just snap my fingers and make all my scopes (2 NF and 2 SWFA) mil. I get the advantages. I like base-10 math. I can see the light. I just can't stomach the time (backorders), money, hassle, etc. of selling all my scopes and rebuying them in mil. Not sure what to do then just suck it up and commit. I'd like to think that I could just replace them slowly, but I know myself well enough to know that once I switch one of them to mil, the MOA ones are going to bug me until I replace them too. Long story short, I know what I need to do, I'm just having trouble justifying the expense.

I thought I could do it, shoot both, but it’s so much easier to stick with one.


The more you shoot mil, the more you shoot in varying wind, the harder it becomes to go back to an MOA scope.

Cost me money too…

 

[parshal]

I thought I could do it, shoot both, but it’s so much easier to stick with one.


The more you shoot mil, the more you shoot in varying wind, the harder it becomes to go back to an MOA scope.

Cost me money too…

It cost me replacing seven NF ATACRs!!!

 

[prm]

It cost me replacing seven NF ATACRs!!!

You win....

Okay, NRL22, what's a solid budget to mid-grade rifle choice?

 

[Formidilosus]

You win....

Okay, NRL22, what's a solid budget to mid-grade rifle choice?

Tikka T1x that’s seeing a bunch shot, and shooting/trying a lot of .22’s including Vudoos.

 

[Lawnboi]

My plan is a T1x, bravo and a swfa 10 for 22 matches on a budget.

I can’t justify 4 grand for a 22.

I’d like to try some 22 matches as they are a little more local but need to talk the boss into letting me buy another rifle.

 

[Billy Goat]

My plan is a T1x, bravo and a swfa 10 for 22 matches on a budget.

I can’t justify 4 grand for a 22.

I’d like to try some 22 matches as they are a little more local but need to talk the boss into letting me buy another rifle.

Around here, they are know as the "Warden".

 

[NE2IA]

I always thought the comps were more western geographically. After looking at the schedule for NRL hunter I was pleasantly surprised to see some events “local”. I’m definitely considering getting involved