What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[gbflyer]

This is how it goes. Queue the big talk:

Juneau hunters recount brown bear attack on Admiralty Island that left one battered, but alive

Even though everyone walked away from the encounter with a brown bear sow, it left the seasoned hunters rattled.

www.ktoo.org

 

[grappling_hook]

Why match bullets? See we already have a issue! Do i need match bullets in my 375?

Modern match bullets (73gr ELDMs or 77gr TMKs) are why I now carry an AR15 in brown bear country while hunting. Instead of the .338 or 12-gauge I carried for defense in brown bear rivers in the 90s while working for Fish and Game.

 

[Dobermann]

I'm wondering if this is really someone else who used to be on this forum. A couple of folks come to mind. Or maybe the latest version of a bot.

Bah ... I go away away for a month and this thread happens. Could only stomach a few pages in the middle until I realized I actually have a life to live ...

But I'm dying to know: did anyone ever find out if MtnW is indeed a banned user reincarnated ... or, at the very least, if MtnW and TaperPin are related?

Right, carry on ...

 

[AkRyan]

Have you ever parachuted from a plane and had a parachute fail to open? If not- (because it hasn’t happened to you) does that mean that parachutes don’t fail to open?


“It hasn’t happened to me” is not a logical position in an argument.

This entire post is based off people's experiences. Are we trying to say a .223 is just simply better than every other cartridge? Can we put a .223 rifle in anyone's hands and know that it will be perfectly lethal on there first shot??
What is required to kill a grizzly bear is a major disruption to the central nervous system, extreme blood loss, or loss of brain function.
If your confident in going into the woods solo with a .223 to hunt grizzly bears than you should!
Give me a .223 and I will kill bears but you can't say that for everyone., and we absolutely cannot ignore the fact that ultra heavy bullets from larg magnums are better suited for bears...I want to bring up Africa but I know 90% of you will just bring up the jack O'Connor story. YOU ARENT JACK O'CONNOR

 

[Formidilosus]

This entire post is based off people's experiences. Are we trying to say a .223 is just simply better than every other cartridge?

Has anyone said that? Can you quote it if so.

There is no cartridge that is “better” than every other cartridge.

Can put any rifle in anyone's hands and know that it will be perfectly lethal on there first shot??

No. What is your point here?

What is required to kill a grizzly bear is a major disruption to the central nervous system, extreme blood loss, or loss of brain function.

Yes. So where does a 223 with good bullets lack in that- please be specific, as you just know from experience with 223’s and the bullets discussed to believe what you do.

If your confident in going into the woods solo with a .223 to hunt grizzly bears than you should!
Give me a .223 and I will kill bears but you can't say that for everyone.,

That doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.

and we absolutely cannot ignore the fact that ultra heavy bullets from larg magnums are better suited for bears...

That is not factually true, that is your “belief” and “feeling”.

I want to bring up Africa but I know 90% of you will just bring up the jack O'Connor story. YOU ARENT JACK O'CONNOR

What?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This entire post is based off people's experiences. Are we trying to say a .223 is just simply better than every other cartridge? Can put any rifle in anyone's hands and know that it will be perfectly lethal on there first shot??
What is required to kill a grizzly bear is a major disruption to the central nervous system, extreme blood loss, or loss of brain function.
If your confident in going into the woods solo with a .223 to hunt grizzly bears than you should!
Give me a .223 and I will kill bears but you can't say that for everyone., and we absolutely cannot ignore the fact that ultra heavy bullets from larg magnums are better suited for bears...I want to bring up Africa but I know 90% of you will just bring up the jack O'Connor story. YOU ARENT JACK O'CONNOR

The animals in Africa aren’t the armor plated mythical creatures that everyone would have you believing. They die the same as every other animal when hit properly with a well constructed bullet at a high enough velocity.

If you think there is more “margin for error” with a slightly larger diameter bullet you are in for a rude awakening.

 

[fwafwow]

The animals in Africa aren’t the armor plated mythical creatures that everyone would have you believing. They die the same as every other animal when hit properly with a well constructed bullet at a high enough velocity.

If you think there is more “margin for error” with a slightly larger diameter bullet you are in for a rude awakening.

Well, but if you aren’t wearing the right clothing, then you will not kill (at least appropriately) in Africa.

 

[Luke S]

Let's stay on topic. How big and how long does a wound need to be on a grizzly for a quick kill? My .308 worked. Based on black bear kills I think a 6.5 Grendal would work. At least one grizzly had been killed with a .223 77TMK. If a bullet has a limit aside from the velocity expansion window I want to know what it is. Only question so far is whether the 6.5 is running out of steam a bit faster than the 308 when it hits a shoulder bone. I believe I've seen two broken shoulders with the 6.5 and both got to the vitals but did not exit.
Can you have a bear so big a shoulder hit fails to reach the vitals? If so I'd step up a size in bullet.
At what point is a bullet making a smaller hole and causing a slower death? The old idea was "bigger kills faster" but after a certain point I don't think it matters. A deflated lung is a deflated lung.

 

[Thegman]

Let's stay on topic. How big and how long does a wound need to be on a grizzly for a quick kill? My .308 worked. Based on black bear kills I think a 6.5 Grendal would work. At least one grizzly had been killed with a .223 77TMK. If a bullet has a limit aside from the velocity expansion window I want to know what it is. Only question so far is whether the 6.5 is running out of steam a bit faster than the 308 when it hits a shoulder bone. I believe I've seen two broken shoulders with the 6.5 and both got to the vitals but did not exit.
Can you have a bear so big a shoulder hit fails to reach the vitals? If so I'd step up a size in bullet.
At what point is a bullet making a smaller hole and causing a slower death? The old idea was "bigger kills faster" but after a certain point I don't think it matters. A deflated lung is a deflated lung.

Regarding the question in the second sentence,
I doubt it has ever been or even can be quantified that closely.

A "Big enough" cartridge on the upper end is generally agreed upon (like a 375 H&H e.g.). The lower end on how much is enough is going to be a pretty open ended question. So far for me, 300WM down to 223 have all produced similar results.

It would take a lot of grizzly kills with meticulous documentation to answer that question, and that's just not something we can do with a 1 bear per year maximum sample size.

 

[Luke S]

I agree Thegman. But I think focusing on those questions (somewhat quantifiable) is more intelligent than following rabbit trails like "So and So uses a .375 Mag, so that is the way to go." Maybe at some point someone will shoot a 10 foot brown bear and find that a certain bullet size won't go through the shoulder and into to lungs. Okay, that is measurerable, now we step u in caliber. But right now we are working our way down and I'm not seeing a ton of evidence that we are losing killing abiilty.

 

[atmat]

Maybe at some point someone will shoot a 10 foot brown bear and find that a certain bullet size won't go through the shoulder and into to lungs. Okay, that is measurerable, now we step u in caliber.

The thing is that this is not an actual problem to solve. No bone is going to stop a small, pointed, metal object traveling >1800 FPS

 

[Luke S]

I am not totally convinced it is a problem to solve either atman. Seems a .223 goes through a moose just fine so I assume it would do fine on a big bear. I just I don't think we have enough data to say definitely yet.
But even if we proved that it doesn't mean we need to go to the other extreme and hunt with a 375 shooting 300 gr Barnes bullets. If someone told me a big bear shoulder bone would reliably stop a .223 bullet before it got to the vitals I'd shrug and use my .308 instead. I don't think the recoil and slow follow up shots of a really big magnum are worth whatever marginal (possibly theoretical) one shot killing ability you might gain.

 

[JGRaider]

The animals in Africa aren’t the armor plated mythical creatures that everyone would have you believing. They die the same as every other animal when hit properly with a well constructed bullet at a high enough velocity.

If you think there is more “margin for error” with a slightly larger diameter bullet you are in for a rude awakening.

How many times have you been over there, and who did you hunt with? Africa is a magical place.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

How many times have you been over there, and who did you hunt with? Africa is a magical place.

Twice for hunting and 6 times on customer sites, with zero desire to return.

 

[JGRaider]

Twice for hunting and 6 times on customer sites, with zero desire to return.

That's interesting, but to each his own. I loved every minute of my 5. No high fences where I went in Namibia. South Africa.....might as well hunt the Texas Hill Country.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

That's interesting, but to each his own. I loved every minute of my 5. No high fences where I went in Namibia. South Africa.....might as well hunt the Texas Hill Country.

No high fence for me either. Customers took us out in old land cruisers, shot from a tripod 20-40 feet from the vehicle for each kill. All meat donated other than what we are back at the camp.

Good memories and great people, but nothing I would pay to do or go out of my way to do again.

 

[AkRyan]

Has anyone said that? Can you quote it if so.

There is no cartridge that is “better” than every other cartridge.




No. What is your point here?




Yes. So where does a 223 with good bullets lack in that- please be specific, as you just know from experience with 223’s and the bullets discussed to believe what you do.




That doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.




That is not factually true, that is your “belief” and “feeling”.





What?

Can you go hunt in Africa for large game with a .223? If not why?
Your ford ranger might pull your boat but a f350 pulls it better is all I'm saying.

 

[Formidilosus]

Can you go hunt in Africa for large game with a .223? If not why?

You ever notice how you don’t answer any direct questions?

But yes, you can.

Your ford ranger might pull your boat but a f350 pulls it better is all I'm saying.

Only if you demonstrate that it is. All you have said is “so and so says it’s better”, with “so and so” never having done anything that they say won’t/doesn’t work.