What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[fwafwow]

Well, you're right about one thing: My 223 does in fact feel like a BB gun, shooting deer, moose, black bears, grizzly, whatever...damn thing always feels like a BB gun.View attachment 766784
View attachment 766785

Do you describe that build in another thread?

 

[KHntr]

He is far more aggressive over there and I'm not sure if that is just the way that forum is run or what. Thought at the start maybe it was drunk posting but now, it would have to be a heck of a bender he was on to take it this far and this long.

Jay

A lot easier to be a keyboard warrior when the person you are calling out doesn’t post on that forum. Think it was more that he wanted to rile up a mob with pitchforks and then lead the charge over here.

 

[The Guide]

Do you describe that build in another thread?

He does. It started with a post in the 223 thread last year but he started another thread with his build info and such. There is quite a bit of knowledge and information shared on that thread. I have an upper but need to order an ultralight lower and decide what barrel to use. I'm thinking a 6x45 and a folding UL stock would be a great one to just take everywhere with you in a backpack.

Jay

Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

I posted some info on the 77TMK thread about my experience on trying out the 77TMK on this black bear. There was some interest in the rifle used so I'm posting some info about the whys and hows on some of what I've put together over the last year or so. I've been carrying lightweight bolt...

rokslide.com

 

[Thegman]

Do you describe that build in another thread?

Yes, as mentioned, there are a couple of build lists at the start of the thread and now a bunch of others as well.

The one on the grizzly is the first UL-UL 223 I built.

The one on the moose and pictured on the scale in this thread is the latest 223.

Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

Just got a chub. What is that? Barely making the cut

rokslide.com

It's on this page, but the barrel, stock and handguard are described pages earlier. It's working out really well. One of my favorite builds so far.

 

[walk2112]

I hypothesize the highest risk, in MtnW’s case, between the two scenarios of A)random bear mauling or B)bush plane crash…
would be B) bush plane crash.

Assuming he’s piping off most of the time like this, the bears would be high tailing it for the next drainage over anyway (due to the fear of succumbing to his mastery) and the bush pilot would be distracted by resisting the urge to fly head first into the nearest mountain to make the ranting stop.

 

[Superx3]

I will start by saying I have never killed a brown bear or grizzly, but would love to one day. If I do go on a hunt I will likely take my 270Wsm. Some people would ask why? Because I have 110% faith that it will do the job! I personally have never been a fan of the 223 so I’m dang sure not taking it on an expensive guided hunt. (I don’t live in Alaska). That being said an AR .223 in self defense would definitely be better than a 9mm. But I’m pretty sure in that situation every red blooded person I know would probably rather have a 300 blackout than a .223 when it came to tangling with a pissed off grizz. Now let’s all put a way the rulers, and be thankful we live in this great county that lets us have the opportunity to hunt and express our opinions!

 

[yeti12]

I will start by saying I have never killed a brown bear or grizzly, but would love to one day. If I do go on a hunt I will likely take my 270Wsm. Some people would ask why? Because I have 110% faith that it will do the job! I personally have never been a fan of the 223 so I’m dang sure not taking it on an expensive guided hunt. (I don’t live in Alaska). That being said an AR .223 in self defense would definitely be better than a 9mm. But I’m pretty sure in that situation every red blooded person I know would probably rather have a 300 blackout than a .223 when it came to tangling with a pissed off grizz. Now let’s all put a way the rulers, and be thankful we live in this great county that lets us have the opportunity to hunt and express our opinions!

I'd take a 223. I don't get the point of 300 blk unless you NEED something quiet and are shooting subs.

 

[JGRaider]

A lot easier to be a keyboard warrior when the person you are calling out doesn’t post on that forum. Think it was more that he wanted to rile up a mob with pitchforks and then lead the charge over here.

Thin skinned people die a quick death over on that board.

 

[KHntr]

Thin skinned people die a quick death over on that board.

Hahahahha not wrong. 4 minutes into any thread Stick comments on shows that….

 

[pacoalcracker]

So far I have seen no compelling logic or advantages of using a 223 for grizzlies over any other heavier more accepted cartridges.....except for lighter recoil which someone has posted a grown man should be able to handle most levels up to perhaps a 30-06. I myself have no problem shooting my 505 Gibbs for 10 rounds and I'm not a tough guy at all. Perhaps all of this could easily be settled by someone listing the advantages and thus perhaps some logic around it. Let's see the disadvantages list as well. Let's see the lists and maybe change some minds. I'm sure someone here can provide both. I'm not for or against...just want to see the reasonable logic.

BTW, anyone comparing the effects of a 450gr arrow/broadhead to a 223 bullet to try to make a point.....isn't.

 

[Bubbadoyle]

This is just my opinion but I think any cartridge shooting a bullet that will push through both lungs will result in a dead bear. The amount of trauma caused will lead do different times and distances between the shot and when it finally expires. A .224 caliber with the proper bullet and a well placed shot should lead to a clean kill. With that being said the chambering required for a grizzly in a defense situation is drastically different. A grizzly is not something I’d be pushing the limits of small calibers if I ever were to hunt one as I have many other chamberings that I would consider better but I’d certainly have confidence in a well constructed bullet being able to push through both lungs and effectively kill one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[KHntr]

It ain’t the chambering that kills stuff, it’s the bullet.

 

[LCV]

So far I have seen no compelling logic or advantages of using a 223 for grizzlies over any other heavier more accepted cartridges.....except for lighter recoil which someone has posted a grown man should be able to handle most levels up to perhaps a 30-06.

What does how much recoil you can handle have to do with it? The 223 does a fine job of killing things, why would someone want more recoil?

 

[Decker9]

What does how much recoil you can handle have to do with it? The 223 does a fine job of killing things, why would someone want more recoil?

I don’t knock the .223, but to answer your question.

I take a tad more recoil because I hunt mostly with my grandparents pair of pre 64 .375’s. There’s a lot more to the hunt for me personally than just a harvest. I pack my heirlooms with pride, they make me smile, bring back great memories, i shoot them well and they kill well.

Recoil has nothing to do with why I choose a rifle, and no qualms to anyone who does, some people don’t like recoil, some people don’t mind it.

 

[Strider]

Boys you did it again. This thread is pure Rokslide gold. Exquisite.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Strider, yes, it highlights the "following" culture of the day and the drinking of the kool-aid. I wonder how long before the first guy gets mauled to death trying to hunt a griz with a 223.

I happened to review the forum post about what everyone is using for elk......only a single poster out of like 21 pages of replies....maybe 150 or so individual posters....was using a 223 with just 1 more saying he might next year. That is quite a ratio difference, so I doubt the number of hunters thinking it's a great idea to hunt a grizzly with teeth and claws and a potential bad attitude with a 223 is gaining in any significant number.

Probably not a wise decision....and that's what it all comes down to.

 

[Formidilosus]

Strider, yes, it highlights the "following" culture of the day and the drinking of the kool-aid.

Drinking cool aid is literally following what you are told with no experience, data, or information-



Point in fact, your following of a belief that is not rooted in experience with, or data of- smaller caliber effectives is in fact “drinking of the kool-aid”.

I wonder how long before the first guy gets mauled to death trying to hunt a griz with a 223.

Probably about the same time someone gets mauled to death trying to hunt a grizz with a 375 H&H.

Btw- what about the terminal ballistics of a good 223 bullets do you feel is lacking in comparison to whatever you have or would use to hunt a grizzly?

I happened to review the forum post about what everyone is using for elk......only a single poster out of like 21 pages of replies....maybe 150 or so individual posters....was using a 223 with just 1 more saying he might next year. That is quite a ratio difference,

A whole 21 replies in a random poll… Thats quite a robust data set. Give or take.

Beyond that, what does what people belive when those people who have zero experience with a thing mean? “I’ve never done it, but I know it’s not right Can’t tell you why, but it isn’t”.

so I doubt the number of hunters thinking it's a great idea to hunt a grizzly with teeth and claws and a potential bad attitude with a 223 is gaining in any significant number.

So if the masses believe something, then it makes it a good idea?

Probably not a wise decision....and that's what it all comes down to.

Why not? Be specific- you are posting multiple times here, so you have the ability to articulate in real terms “why it’s not a wise decision”. Feel free to use real points such as- penetration depth, wound width, wound shape, etc.

 

[Thegman]

Strider, yes, it highlights the "following" culture of the day and the drinking of the kool-aid. I wonder how long before the first guy gets mauled to death trying to hunt a griz with a 223.

I happened to review the forum post about what everyone is using for elk......only a single poster out of like 21 pages of replies....maybe 150 or so individual posters....was using a 223 with just 1 more saying he might next year. That is quite a ratio difference, so I doubt the number of hunters thinking it's a great idea to hunt a grizzly with teeth and claws and a potential bad attitude with a 223 is gaining in any significant number.

Probably not a wise decision....and that's what it all comes down to.

Neither I, nor anyone else, I think, are trying to convince you to use any particular cartridge if you are ever in the position to hunt grizzlies. If it ever does happen, use whatever you're comfortable with.

The issue seems to be you, and a few others, are trying to convince others that it -shouldn't- be done.

The common denominator of that view seems to be zero experience with killing grizzlies or even using a 223 for medium and big game, and large dose of hypothetical imagining.

I understand that you don't think it's a good idea. I also understand that you have no relevant experience on which to base your recommendations.

You may want to note that the posters that live around, and have actually killed "the great bears", and also use various 22 caliber rifles for big game, seem pretty confident in the idea.

Another thought:

You state it's following the culture and drinking the kool-aid, yet in the next paragraph provide evidence the the crowd isn't doing it. Which is it? The ideas seem mutually exclusive.

It's interesting that you refer to it as "drinking the kool-aid" and then dip into the kool-aid bowl for evidence to support your argument.

 

[AkRyan]

Without getting into whether a massive bear is 18” or 30” across, it doesn’t matter- the difference in muscle and bone depth is only a few inches from an average black bear to a huge record Brown Bear. Everything between the ribs is virtually air and has almost zero effect on bullet penetration depth. 12” penetration through properly calibrated organic 10% ballistics gel and any of the barriers- wood, wallboard, sheet metal, and especially auto glass; is going through both lungs regardless of angle when put into the front half.

How many bears have you shot and skinned? You do realize they put on massive layers of fat all year right? I also think people need to specify if they are shooting alaskan/Canadian bears or lower 48 bears. There is a difference. And yes I know the bear get big down there but that's because they don't have to hibernate.

 

[KHntr]

Strider, yes, it highlights the "following" culture of the day and the drinking of the kool-aid. I wonder how long before the first guy gets mauled to death trying to hunt a griz with a 223.

I happened to review the forum post about what everyone is using for elk......only a single poster out of like 21 pages of replies....maybe 150 or so individual posters....was using a 223 with just 1 more saying he might next year. That is quite a ratio difference, so I doubt the number of hunters thinking it's a great idea to hunt a grizzly with teeth and claws and a potential bad attitude with a 223 is gaining in any significant number.

Probably not a wise decision....and that's what it all comes down to.

The last 3 grizzlies that I have seen that wasn’t from the confines of a pickup truck, were grizzlies that were observed while hunting elk.
One of them was an absolute behemoth of a bear that I snuck up on accidentally in the rain, and got to within 30 yards of just at last light as I was checking a hidden pocket for bulls.
The next one was a sub adult that was running in to the smell of a freshly gutted elk.
The last one came charging through the timber to my cow calls and was 30 yards out before I identified that it was a bear and not a bull, and gave him a holler to turn him so he ran past at 10 yards, instead of over me.

3 falls ago walking out of the sheep mountains in the rain we found a different trail that we followed, that had boot prints a couple hours old on it. A half hour later a fresh set of cow moose tracks entered the trail, following the guys in front of us. A half hour after that, an even fresher set of big grizz tracks also appeared on the trail.
I commented at that time to my buddy, that “as long as this cow doesn’t catch up to these dudes and turn around and head back and then run into this bear 10 minutes before we get there, we are golden.”

A half hour later we stopped to look at a giant pile of grizz shit on the trail when something caught my eye behind us. A very large grizzly crossed the trail behind us maybe 20 yards back. We backed along the trail, around a slight corner where my buddy stepped into the cow moose who was so recently dead that the nerves were still making her intestines move.

Long story short, my Montana 223AI was what was in my hands this year when we bumped a 3 or 4 year old grizz not 50 yards from that spot on the trail. I felt completely confident in that rifle and my abilities with it and the fact that it was stuffed with 4 rounds of 77 TMK’s. So confident in fact, that the only rifle I am carrying this fall is that 223AI with 77TMKS or 88 ELD m’s. It’s already been on a stone sheep hunt, to the coast to hunt sitka blacktails, and it flat smacked the bull elk pictured below down and dead in under 10 seconds. I will carry it hunting moose in a few weeks and *hopefully* I’ll be the first guy on the planet to kill three bulls in three years with 88 ELD m’s. I’ll probably kill a great big black bear with it this fall yet just for giggles. And it’ll definitely kill a big BC buck or two.

This bull fell within 300 yards of where all three of the previously mentioned grizz encounters occurred. Hunting elk solo, in grizz country. And I do have grizzly blood under my fingernails (Metaphorically speaking, not currently).

I’ve killed a reasonable number of critters bigger than deer with a lot of different cartridges, and I feel completely confident in using a 223 stuffed with bullets that maximize damage as being faster killers than traditionally accepted cartridges that minimize damage - ie, controlled expansion/mono’s/bonded bullets.

But thats just me, and I have a pretty high comfort level when it comes to bears in general. I live every single day in bear country and walking to my shop could result (and has resulted) in a close range bear encounter.