What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[yeti12]

A deer and a brown bear are not the same. When someone says a 223 is great for deer and elk, but maybe not a brown bear, and then you post a picture of a deer, it seems like you haven’t done the thing.

Go to the 223 thread, there is brown bears in there.

 

[RockChukkar]

No but I have with 50 and 55gr varmint bullet's from 22 CF's. Have also killed three deer with the 243 and I don't recommend it either. Because something is possible is no reason to recommend it! Most my deer have been shot with the 25-06, 6.5x55, 7mm Rem Mag and 308 Win. have also killed a few with the 7x57 and one with the 338 Win Mag! If I was to believe I wanted to shoot deer with 75/77/80 and 86gr bullet's I'd step up to the 243 and shoot 90gr and/or 100gr bullets.

50gr NBT’s out of a slow twist 22-250 or swift are like lightning bolts on white tail. Spectacular DRT killer.

 

[JGRaider]

So again-

“I have never done a thing, have no experience with it- but let me tell you how it works”.


For the second time- can you tell me/us exactly what about the wound channel is lacking with a one of the heavy for caliber tipped match bullets listed above, for a bear?






Which ones are 300wm, 300 RUM, 243win, or 223?


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Most of those are far from my idea of good hunting bullet performance, but then again I don't like exploding bullets except for hogs, yotes, or other vermin. This is more like it......

 

[SC HUNTER]

50gr NBT’s out of a slow twist 22-250 or swift are like lightning bolts on white tail. Spectacular DRT killer.

55 grain hornady Molly coated vmax is what I shot out of my swift. When I got it from the builder and shot those bullets I bought 3 cases of them and ran through them quickly. I couldn't tell you how many deer, hogs, Coyotes, bobcats, armadillos etc it killed. I know it killed 1 cow and 1 horse though. that little 55 grain bullet is like hitting animals with a hammer right in the head. They just die. I need to get that rifle rebarreled and start shooting it again. That was the rifle that rode in the truck on crop permits for years.

 

[RockChukkar]

55 grain hornady Molly coated vmax is what I shot out of my swift. When I got it from the builder and shot those bullets I bought 3 cases of them and ran through them quickly. I couldn't tell you how many deer, hogs, Coyotes, bobcats, armadillos etc it killed. I know it killed 1 cow and 1 horse though. that little 55 grain bullet is like hitting animals with a hammer right in the head. They just die. I need to get that rifle rebarreled and start shooting it again. That was the rifle that rode in the truck on crop permits for years.

when I was in my early teens I hunted with a 12ga slug gun, a 30/06 and a 300 win mag on occasion. Think it was when I was about 18 I got a swift and decided to try it out on white tail. I never went back to the 12ga, 06 or 300. I mostly use an ar15 of some flavor with 77gr smk’s now, but the 22-250 comes out frequently as well.

 

[doc holiday13]

59 pages

I'd say this topic is beat to death..

Bigger calibers I think have been some sort of machoism. 223 and 6mm are good for kids and women mentality. Some people then take a "step of faith" and shoot a deer with a 223 or 6mm and realize "i can carry a 6# gun that doesn't beat me up and still puts the animal on the ground"

No way in hell you're gonna catch me shooting a deer with a 30 cal or bigger unless its a dedicated sub-sonic suppressed round.

 

[SC HUNTER]

when I was in my early teens I hunted with a 12ga slug gun, a 30/06 and a 300 win mag on occasion. Think it was when I was about 18 I got a swift and decided to try it out on white tail. I never went back to the 12ga, 06 or 300. I mostly use an ar15 of some flavor with 77gr smk’s now, but the 22-250 comes out frequently as well.

I've been full circle. I shot my first deer with a 270 because that's what daddy had and I thought it was so cool! Then I went to a 243 then it got stupid. Wsm's, 300 win mag, 7mag, 7 STW, 325 WSM until I realized I was killing deer, way more deer, on permits with a swift, 250 and 223 rifles. Now I'm back to medium size calibers 7mm-08, 6.5 creedmoor down to a 300 blackout that the kids shoot alot. My right shoulder needs to be worked on bad but I'm putting it off, I can throw left handed with the kids in the yard and can still carry a 2 year old around. those little fast flying pills wreck deer and pigs and I love it.

 

[Big_wals]

Not a brown bear or a TMK, but Harry Caldwell shot a lot of tigers in China with a 22 Hi Power. Its been several years since I read his book, so I did a little google research to refresh my memory. He went to China in the early 1900’s as a missionary, and found out someone needed to deal with man eating tigers. His brother sent him a rifle, IIRC a 303 savage, but he mailed it back and specifically requested a 22 hi power.

Bear in mind, Harry was hunting known man eaters, often at night, and that was his choice of weapon. I found a couple sources online that said he killed 48 tigers during his time there, not sure how many with the 22. Its been a while since Iv’e read it, and I know he shot some with a 303 and a shotgun also. The book is called Blue Tiger if anyone’s interested.

 

[RockChukkar]

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Not a brown bear or a TMK, but Harry Caldwell shot a lot of tigers in China with a 22 Hi Power. Its been several years since I read his book, so I did a little google research to refresh my memory. He went to China in the early 1900’s as a missionary, and found out someone needed to deal with man eating tigers. His brother sent him a rifle, IIRC a 303 savage, but he mailed it back and specifically requested a 22 hi power.

Bear in mind, Harry was hunting known man eaters, often at night, and that was his choice of weapon. I found a couple sources online that said he killed 48 tigers during his time there, not sure how many with the 22. It’s been a while since Iv’e read it, and I know he shot some with a 303 and a shotgun also. The book is called Blue Tiger if anyone’s interested.

I was unaware of this man. Thanks for the information. Cheers!

 

[Formidilosus]

From the quote that @RockChukkar posted-

“From these "Weapons Regulations," it is more than noticeable that the Game and Fish Department has discriminated against the very small bore cartridges, i.e.: the .220 Swift, .22-250, and .228 Ackley Magnum. Do they have valid reasons?
Has the Department conducted exhaustive research and found that these cartridges do not produce clean kills? Has the department discovered some mysterious fact that the merest six thousandths of an inch will make one rifle suitable for taking big game and the other not? To the best of the author's knowledge, no game department in this country has made any effort whatsoever to conduct any serious studies on the comparative efficiency of various cartridges.

For the past twenty years this writer has made an effort to find out why the small bore, ultra velocity rifle has been outlawed by the majority of the big game states. To this
end I must confess utter failure. From the non-user the answers are always the same: "It's too small." "They won't penetrate." "They only wound and won't leave a blood trail," etc.




Nothing has changed from that. Just as with most things in shooting and hunting- it’s just myths and “grand pappy said so”. No actual empirical evidence, nor even the desire for it. No ability or desire to test, analyze, and compare demonstrable performance. No willingness to find out whether the “common knowledge” is still correct, or if it was ever correct to begin with. No willingness or desire to learn anything new.

 

[RockChukkar]

From the quote that @RockChukkar posted-

“From these "Weapons Regulations," it is more than noticeable that the Game and Fish Department has discriminated against the very small bore cartridges, i.e.: the .220 Swift, .22-250, and .228 Ackley Magnum. Do they have valid reasons?
Has the Department conducted exhaustive research and found that these cartridges do not produce clean kills? Has the department discovered some mysterious fact that the merest six thousandths of an inch will make one rifle suitable for taking big game and the other not? To the best of the author's knowledge, no game department in this country has made any effort whatsoever to conduct any serious studies on the comparative efficiency of various cartridges.

For the past twenty years this writer has made an effort to find out why the small bore, ultra velocity rifle has been outlawed by the majority of the big game states. To this
end I must confess utter failure. From the non-user the answers are always the same: "It's too small." "They won't penetrate." "They only wound and won't leave a blood trail," etc.




Nothing has changed from that. Just as with most things in shooting and hunting- it’s just myths and “grand pappy said so”. No actual empirical evidence, nor even the desire for it. No ability or desire to test, analyze, and compare demonstrable performance. No willingness to find out whether the “common knowledge” is still correct, or if it was ever correct to begin with. No willingness or desire to learn anything new.

Yep. Caliber restrictions are moronic imho. There appears to be zero data ever collected to support such restrictions. I’m glad there are none here in NC.

I will say that about 10 years ago I knew a master game warden personally(he’s since retired). He told me that they estimated that the recovery rate on white tails shot with a bow/arrow was 50/50. I’m not sure how he came up with those numbers.

 

[Dave_S]

And I don't recommend 243 for big game hunting but know it will work as well as any, if the shooter does his job.

I have to assume you think that there is no need for the shooter to do his job with a bigger caliber?

But no matter what I still realize up to some point larger calibers are better if for no other reason better bullet's allowing the shooter to be off a little and still make the shot. While I say this about the 22 RF and 22 CF's I would never recommend either to anyone for even deer or antelope size game. I don't ever hardly ever recommend the 243 yet I have killed three deer with it with three shots. Something like the 223 is more prone to fail on big game for no other reason than the user may have selected a poor choice in bullet's and placed it wrong for what it is

Exactly how big is the margin of error you think a bigger bullet gets you? Furthermore, operator error does not equate to equipment failure. The allegation that a .223 is more prone to fail based on a shooter's bullet selection is not a valid argument against the .223. And, while I didn't quote this part of your post, you allege that a shooter may "place" the shot incorrectly, while also admitting that you can shoot softer recoiling cartridges better. Logically, this means a shooter is more likely to place the shot better with a smaller round. Of course, you also say you would be capable of killing stuff with a .223 or a .22 LR. It either is or is not sufficient.

 

[Thegman]

I have to assume you think that there is no need for the shooter to do his job with a bigger caliber?

Exactly how big is the margin of error you think a bigger bullet gets you? Furthermore, operator error does not equate to equipment failure. The allegation that a .223 is more prone to fail based on a shooter's bullet selection is not a valid argument against the .223. And, while I didn't quote this part of your post, you allege that a shooter may "place" the shot incorrectly, while also admitting that you can shoot softer recoiling cartridges better. Logically, this means a shooter is more likely to place the shot better with a smaller round. Of course, you also say you would be capable of killing stuff with a .223 or a .22 LR. It either is or is not sufficient.

This is a good point. I think the "margin of error", if any, has more to do with bullet construction than the caliber of bullet - at least so far IME. My 30 calibers and bullets I've used with them haven't seemed to provide anything significant as far as "margin of error" over the 223, at least so far.

OTOH, the bullets I use in the 30 calibers -might- offer more shot angles, I don't know. Several times, including a couple of years ago, I've taken full frontal shots on moose with a 308. Penetration to and through the heart/lung area was no problem. Not sure how the penetration of a 77TMK, etc e.g., would do at that shot angle. Not saying it wouldn't be adequate, just haven't seen it done, so I don't know either way.

 

[Macintosh]

This thread has addressed the same arguments so many times you’d think it was stuck on a loop.







Oh, wait…..

 

[2buffalo]

 

[MT_Wyatt]

This thread has addressed the same arguments so many times you’d think it was stuck on a loop.







Oh, wait…..

Bingo. We’ve established the premise long ago…..ha!

 

[JackButler]

Sorry but to me, objective reality is almost every legitimate brown bear guide in Alaska.

That’s an appeal to authority fallacy, not a discussion of objective reality.

What about the wound channel from a 77gr TMK, 75-88gr ELD-M, 75gr Speer Gold Dot, etc. is insufficient for rapidly incapacitating a bear?

 

[fwafwow]

Sorry but to me, objective reality is almost every legitimate brown bear guide in Alaska.

Things change, even among “experts”. Doctors used to apply leaches for various ailments, and much later prescribed weeks of bed rest after heart attacks. Both approaches were wrong, but widely believed at the time. Isn’t it possible that a minimum caliber requirement, without regard to projectile type, could also be misguided and based upon custom and tradition, instead of objective information?

You didn’t answer the question btw.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Sorry but to me, objective reality is almost every legitimate brown bear guide in Alaska.

As someone who had “guided” for a long time… “Guides” and “Outfitters” are close to last place for whom I’d ask for rifle cartridge recommendations.

 

[JGRaider]

As someone who had “guided” for a long time… “Guides” and “Outfitters” are close to last place for whom I’d ask for rifle cartridge recommendations.

Who you gonna believe then, random wannabe's on the internet? LMAO......... I suggest emaling Phil Shoemaker and listen to what he says.