What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Marbles]

Duh fuq is this? What maroon said this gem?

Jay

A relatively normal looking and apparently normal intelligence level adult person who is generally functional in life explaining why my profession recommendations were wrong.

I'm starting to realize, sometimes I am the joke when I engage certain ideas as I am placed outside of the realm of influence. This thread is starting to make me feel like the joke.

 

[The Guide]

A relatively normal looking and apparently normal intelligence level adult person who is generally functional in life explaining why my profession recommendations were wrong.

I'm starting to realize, sometimes I am the joke when I engage certain ideas as I am placed outside of the realm of influence. This thread is starting to make me feel like the joke.

This is why fudd lore will live on forever.

Jay

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Oh the horror! No one is giving up precision by using a 7MM RM or 300 Win Mag. In no way does a 6.5 increase hit rates. What increases hit rates is taking shots within your level of competency and the cartridges capability. However bullet mass and energy have their place.

Strange, the United States military found that hit rates were higher with lighter recoiling cartridges back before world war 2 even started. The only reason the 30-06 continued on was that we had so much surplus ammo and with the budget as well as general anti military sentiment of the time it didn’t make sense to add a different cartridge.

You must know something the military dosent though.

 

[yeti12]

Better question would be what are people not gullible about. With regards to your post about how "proud" people are about how little they shoot (whatever that means), the vast majority of people do not associate their identity with how much they shoot a firearm. Priorities matter.

This year I've shot very little compared to other years but I still have over 1200rds fired so far. That's not just blasting a pistol at pop cans. That's all precision positional practice. Good meaningful practice. It's not uncommon to shoot 5000rds a year.

There's people that are around me every day that know me that don't know how much I shoot, that I shoot at all or the level I compete/have competed at.

It's not an identity, I dont meet people and tell them how much I shoot. it's my duty as a hunter. I believe being able to take long shots increases my odds of a harvest so I need to practice those situations best I can. I also think it's fun to compete. (2 separate ways of doing things with some crossover).

Litterally anything in life you need to practice to be good at. Just cause it's a firearm doesn't make it any different.

 

[Macintosh]

I like data.

Regarding higher recoil affecting overall hit rates--this link to a paper from the US army research lab (linky) squarely looks at the effect of recoil on shooter performance, including accuracy. Accuracy conclusions are on page 978 and 979 of the PDF (dont worry, its not a 1000 page doc, just an excerpt from some collection of papers). Their findings:

hit rates and "critical hit" rates with various cartridges to show effect of recoil--this is at short range so this isolates shooter performance, ie the difference is not contingent on ballistic differences:
5.56: 81% overall hit rate/59% critical hit rate
6.8spc: 76% hit rate/41% critical hit rate
7.62 nato: 76% hit rate/36% critical hit rate
So this^ shows a clear degradation in hit rate as recoil increases, with a 39% reduction in rate of critical hits, and a 5% reduction in overall hits, between 556 and 762 cartridges.

Also, they looked both at single shots versus paired shots (so including a follow-up shot) accuracy “mean radial error”--this shows a degradation of accuracy as recoil increases, while it shows a very significant degradation of accuracy on paired shots, almost a 30% increase in second-round mean radial error for the higher-recoiling cartridge:

 

[HandgunHTR]

I like data.

Regarding higher recoil affecting overall hit rates--this link to a paper from the US army research lab (linky) squarely looks at the effect of recoil on shooter performance, including accuracy. Accuracy conclusions are on page 978 and 979 of the PDF (dont worry, its not a 1000 page doc, just an excerpt from some collection of papers). Their findings:

hit rates and "critical hit" rates with various cartridges to show effect of recoil--this is at short range so this isolates shooter performance, ie the difference is not contingent on ballistic differences:
5.56: 81% overall hit rate/59% critical hit rate
6.8spc: 76% hit rate/41% critical hit rate
7.62 nato: 76% hit rate/36% critical hit rate
So this^ shows a clear degradation in hit rate as recoil increases, with a 39% reduction in rate of critical hits, and a 5% reduction in overall hits, between 556 and 762 cartridges.

Also, they looked both at single shots versus paired shots (so including a follow-up shot) accuracy “mean radial error”--this shows a degradation of accuracy as recoil increases, while it shows a very significant degradation of accuracy on paired shots, almost a 30% increase in second-round mean radial error for the higher-recoiling cartridge:
View attachment 747451

Come on man!

We all know that the reason the military went to the 5.56 was so that enemy soldiers would be wounded rather than killed, because wounded enemy are better than dead ones, or something.
And because the bullets tumble, which is good, right?

 

[Castle Rock]

Well the bit about bullets tumbling is good, when the Poms went to the MKVII 303 the Krauts were bitching because they thought they were being shot up by expanding bullets

 

[AkRyan]

Well, we're past that test...and so far it's worked well for me, and multiple others.
View attachment 743252
View attachment 743253

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

 

[atmat]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

Where is this arbitrary number coming from? I’ve seen elk double-lunged with a 300win make it very far distances.

 

[Macintosh]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

 

[wyosam]

Where is this arbitrary number coming from? I’ve seen elk double-lunged with a 300win make it very far distances.

But what about all the energy?


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[KenLee]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

However you can from a properly executed "Texas Heart Shot".

 

[Macintosh]

Maybe, not a shot Ive ever taken, or ever seen taken, so I wouldnt know. Definitely not something I plan for or build my equipment capability around.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

I shot a young meat buck last year in Minnesota. .260 Rem 129 SST, impact velocity on the deer was 2,400ish. He ran over 80 yards at full speed with all that was left of his heart and both lungs looked like this…



Making general comments as facts on terminal performance based on “how far an animal travels” shows severe lack of killing experience.

 

[KenLee]

Maybe, not a shot Ive ever taken, or ever seen taken, so I wouldnt know. Definitely not something I plan for or build my equipment capability around.

Just tryna expand your horizons

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

To add to the above. Two other deer were shot back to back as a double kill a few days prior to that photo. The biggest, a nice heavy bodied forked horn buck dropped in his tracks with the exact same shot and impact velocity.

The big doe ran 20 yards into the woods before collapsing and dying.

 

[wyosam]

To add to the above. Two other deer were shot back to back as a double kill a few days prior to that photo. The biggest, a nice heavy bodied forked horn buck dropped in his tracks with the exact same shot and impact velocity.

The big doe ran 20 yards into the woods before collapsing and dying.

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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[mxgsfmdpx]

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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Very well could be! I've found that every animal is different in general. Most "run some distance before dying" from what I've seen are cow elk and does, when compared against bulls and bucks (obviously a very general observation).

 

[Big_wals]

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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I think the Hornady guys talked about this on a podcast, not sure which one. Their theory was that it depends on the animals blood pressure at the time they get shot. Relaxed, feeding critters have a low blood pressure and thus the blood flow to the brain stops faster. Rutting, stressed, or like you said, alert and ready to run, it takes longer for blood flow to the brain to stop.

Their analogy was a garden hose full of water. If you sever a low pressure hose, its leaks for a second and quickly stops. A high pressure hose will spray for longer before the pressure bleeds off.

Of course, that doesn’t take into account variable such as breaking bones i.e. shoulders, hitting spinal cord, etc. And every animal is different at the end of the day. I shot a relaxed, feeding whitetail doe through the chest with a 30-06 and she still ran 80 yards once

 

[Thegman]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

Well, your previous cut-off for success was a sub 200 yard run. Now you've apparently halved that.

No worries though. The black bear bolted maybe 40 yards and started tumbling down the mountain. The grizzly ran about 80 yards...ran -exactly as far- and died in -exactly- the same spot as a grizzly shot the previous year...with a 338WM, broadside through the lungs.

I've shot a boatload of bears with 308 and 30-06. So far, I've seen zero difference in runs or time to death using the 77TMK.