What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[atmat]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

Where is this arbitrary number coming from? I’ve seen elk double-lunged with a 300win make it very far distances.

 

[Macintosh]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

 

[wyosam]

Where is this arbitrary number coming from? I’ve seen elk double-lunged with a 300win make it very far distances.

But what about all the energy?


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[KenLee]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

However you can from a properly executed "Texas Heart Shot".

 

[Macintosh]

Maybe, not a shot Ive ever taken, or ever seen taken, so I wouldnt know. Definitely not something I plan for or build my equipment capability around.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

I shot a young meat buck last year in Minnesota. .260 Rem 129 SST, impact velocity on the deer was 2,400ish. He ran over 80 yards at full speed with all that was left of his heart and both lungs looked like this…



Making general comments as facts on terminal performance based on “how far an animal travels” shows severe lack of killing experience.

 

[KenLee]

Maybe, not a shot Ive ever taken, or ever seen taken, so I wouldnt know. Definitely not something I plan for or build my equipment capability around.

Just tryna expand your horizons

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

To add to the above. Two other deer were shot back to back as a double kill a few days prior to that photo. The biggest, a nice heavy bodied forked horn buck dropped in his tracks with the exact same shot and impact velocity.

The big doe ran 20 yards into the woods before collapsing and dying.

 

[wyosam]

To add to the above. Two other deer were shot back to back as a double kill a few days prior to that photo. The biggest, a nice heavy bodied forked horn buck dropped in his tracks with the exact same shot and impact velocity.

The big doe ran 20 yards into the woods before collapsing and dying.

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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[mxgsfmdpx]

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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Very well could be! I've found that every animal is different in general. Most "run some distance before dying" from what I've seen are cow elk and does, when compared against bulls and bucks (obviously a very general observation).

 

[Big_wals]

Over the years watching a lot of animals die, I think there is correlation with level of alertness prior to the shot on reaction to double lung broadside shots. The more relaxed they are, the more likely they seem to be to just drop, or take a few steps and lay down. I think if they were on alert but hadn’t made the break yet (even if still feeding etc, maybe they’ve stopped to look and smell a few times), they are a wound up spring ready to make that run. Makes sense physiologically with the fight or flight response already started.


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I think the Hornady guys talked about this on a podcast, not sure which one. Their theory was that it depends on the animals blood pressure at the time they get shot. Relaxed, feeding critters have a low blood pressure and thus the blood flow to the brain stops faster. Rutting, stressed, or like you said, alert and ready to run, it takes longer for blood flow to the brain to stop.

Their analogy was a garden hose full of water. If you sever a low pressure hose, its leaks for a second and quickly stops. A high pressure hose will spray for longer before the pressure bleeds off.

Of course, that doesn’t take into account variable such as breaking bones i.e. shoulders, hitting spinal cord, etc. And every animal is different at the end of the day. I shot a relaxed, feeding whitetail doe through the chest with a 30-06 and she still ran 80 yards once

 

[Thegman]

How far did they go after the shot? That's the real test imo. If these animals are running over 100yrds then it's not what I would consider to be ethical, if they die in sight or close to then your onto something.

Well, your previous cut-off for success was a sub 200 yard run. Now you've apparently halved that.

No worries though. The black bear bolted maybe 40 yards and started tumbling down the mountain. The grizzly ran about 80 yards...ran -exactly as far- and died in -exactly- the same spot as a grizzly shot the previous year...with a 338WM, broadside through the lungs.

I've shot a boatload of bears with 308 and 30-06. So far, I've seen zero difference in runs or time to death using the 77TMK.

 

[rileybassman]

I think the Hornady guys talked about this on a podcast, not sure which one. Their theory was that it depends on the animals blood pressure at the time they get shot. Relaxed, feeding critters have a low blood pressure and thus the blood flow to the brain stops faster. Rutting, stressed, or like you said, alert and ready to run, it takes longer for blood flow to the brain to stop.

Their analogy was a garden hose full of water. If you sever a low pressure hose, its leaks for a second and quickly stops. A high pressure hose will spray for longer before the pressure bleeds off.

Of course, that doesn’t take into account variable such as breaking bones i.e. shoulders, hitting spinal cord, etc. And every animal is different at the end of the day. I shot a relaxed, feeding whitetail doe through the chest with a 30-06 and she still ran 80 yards once

I would add adrenaline presence as well as blood pressure... hyped, anxious, or stressed animals seem to just take longer to convince they are dead sometimes. Rutting bulls seem like a good example of this. I shot a little satellite early sept. a few years back (archery) that was grazing with some cows, not a care in the world... wind was perfect, never saw me, tipped over within site, 40 yards of where he stood and was completely expired in the amount of time it took me to walk up to him... and that was with an arrow. I've seen the exact same shot on rutted up or angry bulls and they can go 1/4 mile in 30 seconds it seems like sometimes. Almost every deer, elk, or antelope that I can think of that I shot or have seen shot that either didn't know we were there or was super calm, died within feet of where it was shot (with good shot placement obviously). The flip side is my wife shot a doe antelope a few years back that had others shoot at it that morning, lost her boyfriend (sister shot the doe's boyfriend buck an hour before), and that doe took too long to know she was dead. When we gutted her, still had a bullet hole through 1 lung (her shot was a little high admittedly) but that little doe just didn't want to go down easily that day.

 

[Thegman]

I would add adrenaline presence as well as blood pressure... hyped, anxious, or stressed animals seem to just take longer to convince they are dead sometimes. Rutting bulls seem like a good example of this. I shot a little satellite early sept. a few years back (archery) that was grazing with some cows, not a care in the world... wind was perfect, never saw me, tipped over within site, 40 yards of where he stood and was completely expired in the amount of time it took me to walk up to him... and that was with an arrow. I've seen the exact same shot on rutted up or angry bulls and they can go 1/4 mile in 30 seconds it seems like sometimes. Almost every deer, elk, or antelope that I can think of that I shot or have seen shot that either didn't know we were there or was super calm, died within feet of where it was shot (with good shot placement obviously). The flip side is my wife shot a doe antelope a few years back that had others shoot at it that morning, lost her boyfriend (sister shot the doe's boyfriend buck an hour before), and that doe took too long to know she was dead. When we gutted her, still had a bullet hole through 1 lung (her shot was a little high admittedly) but that little doe just didn't want to go down easily that day.

My -guess- would be adrenaline and its overall effects as well. That's more or less what adrenaline is for. An alert animal -probably- has higher blood levels of adrenaline.

Blood pressure and adrenaline are both almost untestable hypotheses. It could be done, but not worth anyone's effort and money I'd think. The guys at Hornady are way deep into their guessing.

 

[Sled]

But what about all the energy?


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I get all kinds of energy after a good shot.

 

[Big_wals]

The guys at Hornady are way deep into their guessing.

Lol. Not gonna argue with you there. Its way over my head, I just know that generally, relaxed animals die faster.

 

[pathnz]

I like data.

Regarding higher recoil affecting overall hit rates--this link to a paper from the US army research lab (linky) squarely looks at the effect of recoil on shooter performance, including accuracy. Accuracy conclusions are on page 978 and 979 of the PDF (dont worry, its not a 1000 page doc, just an excerpt from some collection of papers). Their findings:

hit rates and "critical hit" rates with various cartridges to show effect of recoil--this is at short range so this isolates shooter performance, ie the difference is not contingent on ballistic differences:
5.56: 81% overall hit rate/59% critical hit rate
6.8spc: 76% hit rate/41% critical hit rate
7.62 nato: 76% hit rate/36% critical hit rate
So this^ shows a clear degradation in hit rate as recoil increases, with a 39% reduction in rate of critical hits, and a 5% reduction in overall hits, between 556 and 762 cartridges.

Also, they looked both at single shots versus paired shots (so including a follow-up shot) accuracy “mean radial error”--this shows a degradation of accuracy as recoil increases, while it shows a very significant degradation of accuracy on paired shots, almost a 30% increase in second-round mean radial error for the higher-recoiling cartridge:
View attachment 747451

Thanks for posting this.

To add to the answer for the OP - None of the "rokslide special" approach is particularly new. I am a small calibre shooter - I shot my first deer in 2003 with a .223. I have not hunted with a cartridge larger than 6.5x55 in the last 15+ years. I have had tremendous success with the .243, various small 6.5mms. I have not shot a game animal with anything other than a .223 in the last 5 years or so, although I do have a 6mmGT on the way - largely for increased splash on steel for competition. I use match bullets exclusively except where required otherwise by work and have since around 2009. Generally ELDMs (previously the old Amax) and have no particular need to try anything else as they work perfectly. As a New Zealander and involved in wild animal management I am in a situation where I shoot reasonable numbers of animals, and the small calibres just demonstrably work on animals up to red stag size.

All that said I have long been a believer in increased shooter accuracy with reduced recoil, but have been short on evidence - my own experience is anecdotal, all the posts on here have been "telling not showing". It's good to see some sort of quantification.

 

[JGRaider]

The hornady guys would be one of the last places I'd go for good info (remember the melting tip fiasco?) IME, after hundreds of big game animals killed, "double lunging' and animal is a sure way to have them run off a ways, and high shoulder shots (outside of head shots) give you the best odds of having them drop the quickest. If you've killed enough animals you'll know that nothing is for absolute certain (outside of head shots again), and you can't expect the exact same results 100% of the time even if you're using the exact same load/bullet/rifle on the same animal. That's just reality.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

What's the "melting tip fiasco"?

 

[JGRaider]

The Hornady Amax drew rave reviews from everyone who seriously used them for shooting and/or hunting. Everyone loved the performance. Along came Steve Hornady, who also mandated every employee get the farce of a Covid jab, who proclaimed after further testing the Amax bullet tips actually melted in flight so they announce the ELDM so they could charge more money. They're a bunch of clowns IMO.