What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[ResearchinStuff]

Thanks for responses so far. From what I have gathered, most feel like the body of evidence shown in those referenced threads is a very large factor. Recoil reduction, follow-ups, cheaper ammo etc all make sense.

What about increased hit rates? There's part of that attributable to range finders and better ballistic solvers, part from better shooting due to smaller cartridges, what about wind? I've heard it mentioned there's statistics or data supporting what small/fast is good for minimizing recoil and shooter error - where can I see this?

Along similar lines - are these smaller match bullets behaving the same way as the larger ones in terms of wound size? From a lot of the photos, I am always looking for that, and it is sometimes very obvious and sometimes not.

For example, say you are trying to push me over the edge on this argument: 180gr 7 PRC vs the smaller 140gr in 6.5 CM, or 108 in 6 CM, all ELDMs/match. Comparable muzzle velocities, with 7 PRC followed by 6 CM and then 6.5 CM. All similar bullet constructions, pretty comparable velocities - the thinking is that the 6mm is enough. It produces enough wound channel - so I would expect would channel to grow with the projectile, right? Takes more powder to hustle a 180gr 7 to same Vel as a 6mm 108gr. So....the bullet only cares how fast it is going for exansion. So if the mass of the projectile is increased, for a given shot at 500 yards between the 3, the would channel should correlate to bullet size, right? I think this is the crux of the magnum being overkill for most argument, assuming you are using bullets suitable for ranges being shot, right?

All are honest questions, trying to learn and understand what's being pushed so much day to day. I get you have a projectile and just need a certain velocity min to open it up and do adequate damage. Part of that damage inflicted is based upon energy input (or in other words mass), is it not?

I have to say 4 pages in, I am truly thrilled this thread hasn't devolved into a locked discussion.

I posted some photos the other day in the 223 thread. 180 TTSX from a 300 win mag, 77 tmk from a 223, both through deer below the spine/forward of the diaphragm. Volumetrically, the wounds were about identical. TTSX was bigger on entrance/smaller on exit, 77 TMK was smaller on entrance, bigger on exit. Practically speaking, there was no difference except the cost and recoil, where the 223 had significant advantages.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

I posted some photos the other day in the 223 thread. 180 TTSX from a 300 win mag, 77 tmk from a 223, both through deer below the spine/forward of the diaphragm. Volumetrically, the wounds were about identical. TTSX was bigger on entrance/smaller on exit, 77 TMK was smaller on entrance, bigger on exit. Practically speaking, there was no difference except the cost and recoil, where the 223 had significant advantages.

Saw those, thanks! My experience with monos is similar on wound size, ironically, using 180 gr GMX from a 300WM through both whitetail and Bison. Pretty robust holes when bone is caught, not as great when just vitals....certainly always exited, ha. I don't have a lot of shots on game with match bullets above 150 grains, to compare to kills with my 6.5 CM.

I think the comment on "hunting" bullets that are "tough" and hold together for mass retention and pass throughs is spot on as far as comparison to smaller match bullet performance.

 

[ORJoe]

Re: increased hit probability factors. Is there a way to understand this without purchasing a $200 AB software program? 6UM is "optimized" for hit probability I think I've heard? I understand the concept somewhat, but would like to learn more about it.

I found this: https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Weapon-Employment-Zone-Analysis.pdf

Any other references on the topic?

Blog post about it
Guy calculates a couple of scenarios, basically spending your time at the reloading bench improving ammo versus the range learning wind. It's specific to targets, PRS and shooting way way long range, but surprise: practice is more important than equipment.

It's from a few years ago so some of the specifics might be dated:

In fact, I choose a wildcat like the 6mm Creedmoor, because I plan to handload all my rounds and don’t need a factory ammo option.

 

[roosiebull]

I saw it as an opportunity to convince my wife that smaller is better, so I had to ditch the big guns. I was eyeballing another 500s&w but left with a 223

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I think the comment on "hunting" bullets that are "tough" and hold together for mass retention and pass throughs is spot on as far as comparison to smaller match bullet performance.

only if the mono is impacting fast, and having a plastic tip seems to help too. That TTSX wound is 3-4x the size of the wounds I've seen in the past from the 165 TSX.

 

[Harvey_NW]

What about increased hit rates? There's part of that attributable to range finders and better ballistic solvers, part from better shooting due to smaller cartridges, what about wind? I've heard it mentioned there's statistics or data supporting what small/fast is good for minimizing recoil and shooter error - where can I see this?

This is a good thread with some basic comparisons - https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/1000-yard-cross-canyon-hunting-hit.319763/#post-3191442.

Form has posted comparisons in other threads too, search his postings and WEZ and you'll find more data. One thing I think hinders peoples perception is sample size. Most people aren't willing to spend the time or cost associated with getting statistically valid data from their system. According to Jayden (Hornady senior ballistician) in decent conditions without major environmental variables, precision is pretty linear out to around 500 yards, or more specifically .5 sec time of flight. So a guy could sit down and shoot a 20 shot group out of a 6 Creed, and a 20 shot group with a 300 WM, and get an idea of hit probability based on the group metrics at 100 yards. That establishes a baseline that can be further accounted for in a ballistic calculator to see the effect of environmental variables. It's a safe bet the 6 Creed group will be smaller, apples to apples with good shooting rifles.

Along similar lines - are these smaller match bullets behaving the same way as the larger ones in terms of wound size? From a lot of the photos, I am always looking for that, and it is sometimes very obvious and sometimes not.

For example, say you are trying to push me over the edge on this argument: 180gr 7 PRC vs the smaller 140gr in 6.5 CM, or 108 in 6 CM, all ELDMs/match. Comparable muzzle velocities, with 7 PRC followed by 6 CM and then 6.5 CM. All similar bullet constructions, pretty comparable velocities - the thinking is that the 6mm is enough. It produces enough wound channel - so I would expect would channel to grow with the projectile, right? Takes more powder to hustle a 180gr 7 to same Vel as a 6mm 108gr. So....the bullet only cares how fast it is going for exansion. So if the mass of the projectile is increased, for a given shot at 500 yards between the 3, the would channel should correlate to bullet size, right? I think this is the crux of the magnum being overkill for most argument, assuming you are using bullets suitable for ranges being shot, right?

Essentially, yes. In the terminal ballistics podcast they discussed the differences, along with the defining characteristics of a wound. Form even says bigger bullets can make bigger wounds. I think where the light shines is when the comparison isn't apples to apples, meaning different bullet construction. Like a mono out of a 300WM compared to a tipped match bullet out of a 6mm. The traditional ideology is that the more "energy" delivered by the bigger caliber is going to be more effective at killing, when in reality energy is an irrelevant metric for killing, and in that comparison it creates a smaller wound channel and has a much less margin for error in terms of destroying vital tissue. Takeaway being you can shoot the 6mm more precise AND it creates a bigger wound.

All are honest questions, trying to learn and understand what's being pushed so much day to day. I get you have a projectile and just need a certain velocity min to open it up and do adequate damage. Part of that damage inflicted is based upon energy input (or in other words mass), is it not?

The way I understand it, not necessarily. Energy is irrelevant, but the diameter of the bullet and surface area able to upset and fragment is what will allow the larger projectile to do more damage. Obviously that's determined by construction, and velocity.

Appreciate the thread, took the deep dive on this topic and have been listening to the podcasts and reading all the threads as well. I answered in the way I perceived the information, hopefully it's helpful and not too far off.

 

[TaperPin]

I find it humorous that there is a group feeling this is something new they discovered. 22 bullets, yes, you guys are early adopters, but the speed vs energy debate has been raging since WW2 and before. 4 decades ago Bob Milek writing for Peterson Publishing was saying how he shoots the heck out of elk with his 25-06 and 120gr corloct bullets, which perform about like what’s being talked about here. Three decades before that the 270 and pretty fragile 130 gr bullets were coming apart and killing elk just fine.

I like that you guys like to shoot a lot, but varmint hunters have been doing that since before our grandparents were born. I will never buy the argument that you should be hunting with the rifle you practice with the rest of the year.

Just thinking about all of this makes me want to buy a 300 RUM barrel. Lol

 

[Laramie]

Not sure I can be considered converted yet but I'm doing my best to not be hard headed as I get old so decided what the heck, let's try a little smaller.

This season my son and I hunted with a 6.5 PRC and have had great results. The reason we have given it an honest try? To many reputable people and trusted manufacturers singing the praises.

The switch has resulted in better accuracy. 400 yards honestly seems easy to me and my 14 year old son now. That was a long shot with my 30s. This season, between him and I, we have shot 2 antelope, 4 deer, and 1 bull. 5 of the 7 were shot by the 14 year old. Ranges were 75 yards, 315, 316, 401, 416, 420, and 460. 8 shots fired, all on target and lethal. The bull was shot twice because he was standing but he was dead on his feet and traveled 15 yards. The furthest traveled was an antelope that was hit perfectly at 400 yards. Both lungs were destroyed but it still went 80 yards.

Based on the results this year, I'm buying my wife a 6.5 CM and selling her 7mm-08. Ammo is so much easier to find and it's cheaper. I'm also shopping for myself.... the small ones sure are nice to shoot but I'm not selling my big guns just yet.

 

[signing off]

The evidence as I see it.

Less powder, less brass and less lead per round.
Guys here are singlehandedly responsible for elimination of ammo shortages.

 

[TaperPin]

The evidence as I see it.

Less powder, less brass and less lead per round.
Guys here are singlehandedly responsible for elimination of ammo shortages.

Are you saying the Rokslide special is the hybrid car of the shooting world?

 

[doc holiday13]

2008 is about when I learned match bullets are devastating on deer. shooting the 6.8spc
moved to a 6x6.8spc for coyotes due to high velocity and devastating effects. naturally I loaded some tsx 85g bullets knowing they were similar in weight to my original 6.8 bullet weight. it was even more effective. Once I burn through my cache of 308 components I'm going 6 creed. I would go 223 but Virginia doesn't allow it yet.

my move smaller shotshell was similar too. I do lots of squirreling. rem870 is a heavy 8 sum bitch. 50 rounds weighed an additional 3.5# . I went to 5# 28g. and 2# of ammo

 

[N2TRKYS]

Don't put too much weight into your one experience. I've seen well shot deer run a long ways and/or leave very faint blood trails from a bunch of different projectiles and delivery systems. A 12 gauge slug doesn't guarantee a great blood trail. There is no way to guarantee a great blood trail.

A smart man learns from his experiences and mistakes. A wise man learns from the experiences and mistakes of others as well. Trust the body of evidence in the 223, 6 mm, etc threads.

My experience was exactly what the 223 thread taught me that it would do. I love shooting them at the range, but I’ll be loading a better bullet for my hunting rounds. Just too much risk for when they do run off for me to keep shooting deer with them.

 

[ElPollo]

I find it humorous that there is a group feeling this is something new they discovered. 22 bullets, yes, you guys are early adopters, but the speed vs energy debate has been raging since WW2 and before. 4 decades ago Bob Milek writing for Peterson Publishing was saying how he shoots the heck out of elk with his 25-06 and 120gr corloct bullets, which perform about like what’s being talked about here. Three decades before that the 270 and pretty fragile 130 gr bullets were coming apart and killing elk just fine.

I like that you guys like to shoot a lot, but varmint hunters have been doing that since before our grandparents were born. I will never buy the argument that you should be hunting with the rifle you practice with the rest of the year.

Just thinking about all of this makes me want to buy a 300 RUM barrel. Lol

The 250 Savage was the belle of the ball back in 1915, eight years before the 270 was created. 87 grain bullet at 3k. Not a new thing.

 

[TaperPin]

The 250 Savage was the belle of the ball back in 1915, eight years before the 270 was created. 87 grain bullet at 3k. Not a new thing.

Yes! I almost forgot about that one.

 

[PNWGATOR]

To answer the OP's question:

Equal parts . . .
- better ranging tools and general shooting accuracy (more accessible education/info)
- bullet technology
- most animals hunted by Rokslide hunters are actually not very large
- most Rokslide hunters are not around dangerous game

Not entirely correct…

That said, AK moose are on the list as are coastal brown bear and interior grizzly.

Making it a reality.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I remember 2-3 decades ago when it seemed like the big news in the firearms industry each year was a new magnum of some sort. Short magnum, super short magnum, ultra magnum. The only magnum rifles I have ever owned were a 22 magnum and 44 magnum. When everyone was embracing the latest magnum fad, I was killing stuff with 22-250, 243, 6mm Remington and 257 Roberts. Bullets are even better now.

 

[Castle Rock]

I remember 2-3 decades ago when it seemed like the big news in the firearms industry each year was a new magnum of some sort. Short magnum, super short magnum, ultra magnum. The only magnum rifles I have ever owned were a 22 magnum and 44 magnum. When everyone was embracing the latest magnum fad, I was killing stuff with 22-250, 243, 6mm Remington and 257 Roberts. Bullets are even better now.

You missed out on the REAL good old days with greats like the 8 mm Remington Magnum, 7STW, Jarret Magnums etc

 

[AkMtnRunner]

Not entirely correct…

That said, AK moose are on the list as are coastal brown bear and interior grizzly.

Making it a reality.

Can you please clarify?

 

[gerry35]

Like most I went down the magnum path as a younger guy (mid 50's now) culminating in getting a super accurate 375 Ruger. In time I found that the 375 didn't do anything my 35 Whelen couldn't do so it went down the road. I carry the 35 Whelen in our areas with a large grizzly population regardless of what game I'm hunting. Have a 260 Rem that I know can kill up to moose but I usually carry it for deer, wouldn't hesitate to use it if a moose shows up. I was thinking about getting a 300 PRC or 300 Wby but didn't want all that extra recoil. About that time the 6.8 Western came out and I ended up going that route for a long range gun for moose on down. It's going to perform great with a lot less recoil than the 300's.

I also sold my 12 gauge in favor of a 20 gauge this spring, it and our 28 gauge can handle the birds just fine.

All that said I'm not carrying a 223 in grizzly country. They have gotten pretty aggressive here now and it would be stupid to carry something so light.

 

[Choupique]

All this is fascinating to me. It makes perfect sense and all the math checks out. I just never in a lifetime would have ever considered going elk hunting with a .223 but the evidence is irrefutable.

I've just been thinking about how much I love the results I get from a .338 win mag and over-built bullets for deer and yall out here shooting grizzly with something I always considered a varmint control caliber. I've learned more from here than I'd have learned In a lifetime of my own anecdotes.