What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[PNWGATOR]

Can you please clarify?

There is no difference in the selection of a projectile in the terminal performance window for game up there vs down here.

Effective terminal wound channels are just that.

Terminal.

 

[wind gypsy]

I find it humorous that there is a group feeling this is something new they discovered. 22 bullets, yes, you guys are early adopters, but the speed vs energy debate has been raging since WW2 and before. 4 decades ago Bob Milek writing for Peterson Publishing was saying how he shoots the heck out of elk with his 25-06 and 120gr corloct bullets, which perform about like what’s being talked about here. Three decades before that the 270 and pretty fragile 130 gr bullets were coming apart and killing elk just fine.

I like that you guys like to shoot a lot, but varmint hunters have been doing that since before our grandparents were born. I will never buy the argument that you should be hunting with the rifle you practice with the rest of the year.

Just thinking about all of this makes me want to buy a 300 RUM barrel. Lol

If I’m reading your post right it seems you think this is a speed vs energy debate?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Yeah - I do not appreacite your assumptions and preaching, at all. Sounds like it might surprise you that I own a few rifles, do indeed shoot them, have ballistic calculators, etc. I don't think this takes hand loading to figure out. This is not about blindly listening to the internet and me asking to be told what to do. No worries though - please just consider that not every single person on this site joined recently and has no experience. I think your intent of running some numbers, trying different things on the range and in the field is good for sure - thanks.

I was simply trying to facilitate a discussion I felt like needed its own thread.

I’m not surprised that you own rifles, etc…. I did too when I joined the site as a midwestern fud and naysayer. Hell, I argued points with Form a couple years ago not knowing how truly ignorant I was.

My point is that the “why” for smaller bore cartridges has been challenged and answered in pretty much every thread you mentioned. Another thread you need to add to your reading list that hasn’t been mentioned is:

.25 Cal (Quarter Bore) / Big Game Success - 25 Creed, 25-284, 25-06, 25 PRC, 25 SAUM​

These threads were all created because simply stating the “why” wasn’t good enough. People needed necropsies, targets, explanations, and data to undo decades of so-called “experts” dogma that has brainwashed legions of folks into the “bigger is always better” mentality.

Trying to distill all of the thoughtful information from these threads in this one just feels lazy and redundant. Thats why every week when a new “school me on elk rifles” or similar thread comes up, the same group of guys refer folks to the “big 4” threads on here so they can read and decide for themselves.

To my earlier point, comparing drift and drop is easy enough and can be done on paper first and at the range for real world data.

 

[gabenzeke]

Needs a Tikka .223 topped with an SWFA

You're behind the times. That 22 lr pistol is all you need for elk, moose, and bear 800 yds and in.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[AkMtnRunner]

There is no difference in the selection of a projectile in the terminal performance window for game up there vs down here.

Effective terminal wound channels are just that.

Terminal.

You’re saying the same projectile will have the same effectiveness on a Yukon moose as a smaller animal in the deer family?

 

[PNWGATOR]

You're behind the times. That 22 lr pistol is all you need for elk, moose, and bear 800 yds and in.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Really.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

You’re saying the same projectile will have the same effectiveness on a Yukon moose as a smaller animal in the deer family?

Form actually just posted a top-down comparison of an elk vs a deer this week. In cross section, elk are not tremendously deeper side to side than a deer. I think the difference was a couple inches.

Elk are longer and taller for sure, and I’m sure the same holds true for moose. MUCH taller and longer, but not tremendously deeper across the ribs.

 

[TaperPin]

If I’m reading your post right it seems you think this is a speed vs energy debate?

You know, you’re right - you guys aren‘t even arguing for speed in many cases.

 

[go_deep]

You're behind the times. That 22 lr pistol is all you need for elk, moose, and bear 800 yds and in.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Been killing big critters with the old .22LR for 70 years!

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

 

[PNWGATOR]

You know, you’re right - you guys aren‘t even arguing for speed in many cases.

It’s not “speed vs energy“ at all.

“It’s” about terminal wound channels delivered in an effective, efficient, predictable, repeatable and consistent fashion.

 

[TaperPin]

It’s not “speed vs energy“ at all.

“It’s” about terminal wound channels delivered in an effective, efficient, predictable, repeatable and consistent fashion.

That’s a good description. It’s the Toyota Prius approach.

 

[PNWGATOR]

That’s a good description. It’s the Toyota Prius approach.

Let’s hunt.

 

[TaperPin]

Been killing big critters with the old .22LR for 70 years!

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

I suggested if a 223 is good for 700 yard elk killing, a 22 hornet should be good for 300 yards - omg did everyone have a schit fit. Lol

 

[Formidilosus]

I suggested if a 223 is good for 700 yard elk killing, a 22 hornet should be good for 300 yards - omg did everyone have a schit fit. Lol

No they didn’t. They addressed the reality that a 22 Hornet can not shoot the same projectiles as the 223 and other 22 centerfires- you can’t load a 77gr bullet in a 22 Hornet, therefor your comparison is a non sequitur at the start.
To that silly example however, the 223 with a 55gr VMAX does 3,250fps MV and hits 1,800fps at 485 yards. The 22 hornet does 2,400fps MV with the same bullet and hits 1,800fps at 220 yards. There is not an elk alive that I would not turf right now with that bullet at 200 yards from a 22 hornet.

You, and others keep thinking this is about “power” and/or some ignorant belief in energy. It isn’t. It’s about the only thing that actually affects tissue- the bullet and the resulting wound channel. It does not matter what cartridge or caliber created the wound, only the actual wound.

A pointed stick is a death ray, but you need a magnum to be effective with a rifle.

 

[eric1115]

I suggested if a 223 is good for 700 yard elk killing, a 22 hornet should be good for 300 yards - omg did everyone have a schit fit. Lol

Can you articulate the reasoning given for why the .22 hornet is not a 300 yard elk cartridge, beyond "everyone having a fit?"

I have some recollection of the discussion, and there were some very reasonable arguments presented.

 

[ozyclint]

This thread is so memeable.

 

[Sled]

Been killing big critters with the old .22LR for 70 years!

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

22 long. I had to read the article because I thought it was a short that took out the bear.

 

[CC55]

I started of by listening to shoot2hunt podcasts "we suck at shooting" and "bullet ballistics." Then some serious nerd time researching the threads you referenced as well as just about everything Form has written here. It rattled my brain and challenged what I "thought" I knew about calibers, bullets, terminal performance, etc.

So, I did the responsible thing and put together a RSS'ish setup and figured I'd see for myself. Tikka SL 6.5cm, UM rings, SWFA scope. Mounted it like everyone said to. Shot what everyone said to (140 ELDM picked up off a shelf for $30 vs >50$). 10 shot group, moved zero and 10 more shots to finalize zero. Trued at distance. 30'ish shots and I was feeling really good about the setup. No tricks, no fancy reloads and no flyers. Almost annoyed me how easy it was.

Biggies are:

1. Overwhelming data of bodies stacked up with good bullets in small guns. 223 thread was overwhelming, 6mm and 6.5mm threads sig add to the damage. The 6.5 was a good gateway for me, but now I'm putting together a 223 now for practice.

2. Understanding how bullets actual kill things...giving up on energy. Read the papers by Fackler and others.

3. Looking at what WEZ data posted. Had a "come to Jesus" with my real life shooting ability (all flyers count). My theoretical small % increase in hit rate was sig cancelled out by the extra MOA (now 3+ MOA) that I shot.

4. How easy the RSS'ish setup was.

5. Killing stuff. Set aside my bigger calibers this fall and used 6.5. Things died the same. Wounds looked similar. Nothing got away and didn't pass on any shots.

6. Realized that I need to be shooting a caliber consistent w/ my actual capabilities vs my "future" capabilities. Maybe one day I'll have the skill to be hitting confidently at 800-1000 yards and will leverage what the 30/33 cal mags offer, but until then I should shoot a caliber that fills my current needs <600 yards.

 

[TaperPin]

Can you articulate the reasoning given for why the .22 hornet is not a 300 yard elk cartridge, beyond "everyone having a fit?"

I have some recollection of the discussion, and there were some very reasonable arguments presented.

I don’t know why it was so upsetting - I thought I was helping bringing up a more suitable cartridge for those short shots like are so common with whitetail hunting.

 

[roosiebull]

Just thinking about all of this makes me want to buy a 300 RUM barrel. Lol

The real question is, what bullet will you choose for that RUM?