What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[woods89]

Never heard of him

He's a government coyote control agent that has been on several forums. Lives in eastern MT. He's been using 6.5 and under for quite a few years.

I think he has an old Sako 220 Swift that's on its 9th barrel, and has accounted for a few elk.

 

[Predator_SD]

He's a government coyote control agent that has been on several forums. Lives in eastern MT. He's been using 6.5 and under for quite a few years.

I think he has an old Sako 220 Swift that's on its 9th barrel, and has accounted for a few elk.

Still have no idea who he is so wouldnt be able to comment on whether or not he is a wuss. The few facts you wrote there arent a lot to go on you realize but he very could be i mean he works for the Govt you say.

 

[ORJoe]

People like to use the truck example like killing an elk is equivalent to pulling a horse trailer over a mountain and you can get by with an F150 but you're better off with an F350.
It turns out that it's more like getting a 24 pack home from the grocery store. The rest of the world has been doing that with scooters forever, and we're catching up to them by buying Corollas and Civics.

 

[Predator_SD]

People like to use the truck example like killing an elk is equivalent to pulling a horse trailer over a mountain and you can get by with an F150 but you're better off with an F350.
It turns out that it's more like getting a 24 pack home from the grocery store. The rest of the world has been doing that with scooters forever, and we're catching up to them by buying Corollas and Civics.

Come on man who are you trying to fool. We all know those dudes driving scooters arent buying 24 packs theyre buying small batch craft beers, so at best a 6 pack.

 

[TaperPin]

He's a government coyote control agent that has been on several forums. Lives in eastern MT. He's been using 6.5 and under for quite a few years.

I think he has an old Sako 220 Swift that's on its 9th barrel, and has accounted for a few elk.

If a 220 swift easily takes elk do you ask him why in the world he is using such a gigantic gun to kill a coyote?

 

[TaperPin]

Both hind quarter shots were follow ups to the first shots which were both lungs shots (in one you can see the blood coming out of the chest). Though I’m unsure what that has to do with the wounds created by certain bullets?


However, here’s a single chest hit. Is this an acceptable wound cavity to you?

View attachment 640442


Though it was a quartering too presentation, maybe this one is good? There is chest and stomach contents showing.
View attachment 640443

You realize that wouldn’t happen with a tougher bullet. Lol

 

[Formidilosus]

You realize that wouldn’t happen with a tougher bullet. Lol

That’s the point. So I get a “tougher” bullet for a magnum, artificially shrinking the damage created, to control the wound channel. Or, I could shoot a smaller cartridge with an optimized bullet, purposely maximize the damage, and “suffer” less recoil, less expense, see more during the shot, hit more, enjoy more and kill as fast.


I’m not into buying a V8 and then because it’s “too fast”, start ripping out spark plugs.

 

[woods89]

If a 220 swift easily takes elk do you ask him why in the world he is using such a gigantic gun to kill a coyote?

Ever shot a 17 at extended distance in the wind?

 

[Shraggs]

I certainly can understand not being to be able to read every post. I only follow a few threads or would never be able to get any work done. I don't put a lot of stock in knockdown power either but there has to be some difference between say a 243 as opposed to a 375 as an extreme example. Given equal bullet expansion the bigger round is going to make a much bigger hole. That's probably why they thought it as "knockdown power".

I know you’re responding to another point, but the support you used is the essence of the 223 thread and basis for why educating hunters is important, imm.

I’d add to your point for fudds ( hunters who still believe big displacement, 70+ grains and controlled expansion bullets). The wounds for a 375 with a fmj, vs accubond vs a tmk/eldm-x would be three very different wounds. The later would be horrific as Form just posted of some 30+ cal and fragmenting bullets.

What’s the real variable - the bullet choice. Snd it’s scaled up with caliber.

Dr Fackler has written in conclusion, with right Bullet and corresponding wounds, if insufficient go to a bigger caliber as in bore not powder.

I would not want that much meat loss in those pics.

I have no desire for 30+ ft of recoil using controlled expansion bullets for moderate wounds. Being open has allowed me to learn the low recoiling 223/6//6.5 using high fragmenting ends up with equal or better lethality to big guns with mythical knockdown power and ranges often exceeding what big gun/premium Bullet offers. In a caliber I can shoot often improving my skill.

I think there’s a bit of truth to the manhood or pride comments as an impediment to grasping this paradigm shift.

Not arguing with anyone, just practicing my summery skill for in person friends…

 

[Shraggs]

As usual I’m late, to Forms more concise response to TP (taperpin)

 

[TaperPin]

That’s the point. So I get a “tougher” bullet for a magnum, artificially shrinking the damage created, to control the wound channel. Or, I could shoot a smaller cartridge with an optimized bullet, purposely maximize the damage, and “suffer” less recoil, less expense, see more during the shot, hit more, enjoy more and kill as fast.


I’m not into buying a V8 and then because it’s “too fast”, start ripping out spark plugs.

You do have a solid argument - anything that’s less clunky with good performance seems like a better engineered solution.

 

[TaperPin]

As usual I’m late, to Forms more concise response to TP (taperpin)

Aww - you can call me TP if you want to.

 

[wind gypsy]

Still have no idea who he is so wouldnt be able to comment on whether or not he is a wuss. The few facts you wrote there arent a lot to go on you realize but he very could be i mean he works for the Govt you say.

If you want to see a bunch of big dead stuff and interesting shooting/reloading stuff search posts by breaks runner on hunttalk or scenar shooter on 24hcf.

 

[TaperPin]

Ever shot a 17 at extended distance in the wind?

That 220 swift is a nice fast cartridge - and shots at those coyotes don’t always allow much time to shoot, so that’s not a bad combination. I wonder how many rounds he gets before the barrel is toast? 1000? 1500?

 

[woods89]

That 220 swift is a nice fast cartridge - and shots at those coyotes don’t always allow much time to shoot, so that’s not a bad combination. I wonder how many rounds he gets before the barrel is toast? 1000? 1500?

I don't know what barrel life was. I think its safe to say that a lot of coyotes died because of that rifle.

It looked about like @Formidilosus 6XC....

 

[mt terry d]

"toxic masculinity"

Masculinity is not toxic.

(Just clarifying. carry on)

 

[wyosam]

Masculinity is not toxic.

(Just clarifying. carry on)

Certainly not in and of itself. Questioning people’s manhood because of their cartridge choice is a little toxic. You can be masculine and supportive. I think it’s great folks have figured this out. I can only imagine how great it must be to sit around the fire after a successful hunt with the fellas, exchanging stories of a successful hunt with their suppressed 223, free from any disturbing sounds or sudden jolts. Sipping wine, telling stories, braiding each other’s hair. Sounds pretty damn relaxing.


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[Marshfly]

Certainly not in and of itself. Questioning people’s manhood because of their cartridge choice is a little toxic. You can be masculine and supportive. I think it’s great folks have figured this out. I can only imagine how great it must be to sit around the fire after a successful hunt with the fellas, exchanging stories of a successful hunt with their suppressed 223, free from any disturbing sounds or sudden jolts. Sipping wine, telling stories, braiding each other’s hair. Sounds pretty damn relaxing.


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Sounds better than skipping the fire and wine because you have to track that deer that got away.


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[Unckebob]

Not trolling, but I think there is a lot of knee jerk group think going on.

1) Just like there was big magnum mania where everyone thought they needed a 300 WM to shoot a deer at 75 yard, I suspect the opposite has now occured. People are now striving to use as little a cartridge as they can get away with even if it is a bad idea.

2) While it is true that just about every 223 caliber cartridge has been used to kill a deer, an Elk, or a Grizzly, it doesn't mean they are the best choice for medium to large game.

3) Nobody is going to come on this forum and say I shot a [game animal] with an inadequate cartridge and it ran off wounded to die a slow, agonizing death. Every post on the various caliber threads will be a success story.

4) IMO - the right answer is probably somewhere in the 6mm Range for deer and the 277-284 range for large game. I love my 6ARC and 6.5CM, but they are almost certainly sub optimal for Elk+sized game. No matter how well I shoot them, they are giving up mass and/or speed to 277-284s

5) if you give up power (say a 6.5Cm), you have to give up distance vs a more powerful cartridge.

Bottom Line:
1) if someone is so recoil sensitive they cannot fire a 243 accurately, a 223 isn't the solution for their deer hunting escapades. I someone can fire a 243 accurately, using a 223 to prove a point is poor decision making.
2) if someone is so recoil sensitive that they cannot fire a non magnum 270/284 accurately, they need to get closer to the target to guarantee a clean shot.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Not trolling, but I think there is a lot of knee jerk group think going on.

1) Just like there was big magnum mania where everyone thought they needed a 300 WM to shoot a deer at 75 yard, I suspect the opposite has now occured. People are now striving to use as little a cartridge as they can get away with even if it is a bad idea.

2) While it is true that just about every 223 caliber cartridge has been used to kill a deer, an Elk, or a Grizzly, it doesn't mean they are the best choice for medium to large game.

3) Nobody is going to come on this forum and say I shot a [game animal] with an inadequate cartridge and it ran off wounded to die a slow, agonizing death. Every post on the various caliber threads will be a success story.

4) IMO - the right answer is probably somewhere in the 6mm Range for deer and the 277-284 range for large game. I love my 6ARC and 6.5CM, but they are almost certainly sub optimal for Elk+sized game. No matter how well I shoot them, they are giving up mass and/or speed to 277-284s

5) if you give up power (say a 6.5Cm), you have to give up distance vs a more powerful cartridge.

Bottom Line:
1) if someone is so recoil sensitive they cannot fire a 243 accurately, a 223 isn't the solution for their deer hunting escapades. I someone can fire a 243 accurately, using a 223 to prove a point is poor decision making.
2) if someone is so recoil sensitive that they cannot fire a non magnum 270/284 accurately, they need to get closer to the target to guarantee a clean shot.

Sad