Reburn
Mayhem Contributor
Au contraire, my duty rifle is loaded with issued Federal 55 gr. bonded soft points.
Sigh.
Dude.
How are a TMK and a bonded soft point even remotely the same? Other then both being bullets.
Au contraire, my duty rifle is loaded with issued Federal 55 gr. bonded soft points.
Sigh.
Dude.
How are a TMK and a bonded soft point even remotely the same? Other then both being bullets.
As others have mentioned this is a very old discussion. Absolutely nothing new or revolutionary here. In fact, those who embrace the soft/match bullets are bigger fudds than the tough bullet guys! The first jacketed hunting bullets where all thin jacketed soft points that behaved precisely like the thin jacketed match bullets. They were not as precise or aerodynamic but they performed the same terminally. This is because they were a lead core wrapped in a thin copper or gilding jacket with no means to control expansion or retain weight. Worked perfect for low velocity and dynamite most of the time at high impact velocity lung shots. However sometimes didnt penetrate enough and hunters complained. Bullet makers listened to hunters
Bullets like your grandpa’s Remington corelokt or Win Silvertip came along which thickened / tapered jackets to limit expansion. Cores could still slip, but in general, you had less failures due to insufficient penetration. I will interject here that Jack O’Connor often pointed out that these new fangled “controlled expanding” bullets did not kill deer as fast as the old soft points (sound familiar?) on lung shots but were advisable for shoulder shots, bigger game or “brush hunting”. However, failures were made worse by smaller calibers at higher velocites (6mms, weatherbys, win/rem mags)
Then came partitions, bonding, and eventually monos to increase weight retention. Now lack of penetration were mostly a thing of the past even with light bullets on bigger game. Along with MSR, rise the popularity of using smaller calibers on bigger game….22s on deer, 6/6.5 on elk, etc….
So there is bullet history lesson to get me to my point…. Now we are combining small calibers and bullets with no means to control expansion or retain weight. There are history lessons here. This is not new at all. There is nothing cutting edge in bullet performance with soft bullets. What IS new is we are now focusing on longer ranges where impact velocity is lower and I believe in general guys on places like RS are better educated and equipped. Shot placement and lower impact velocity can forgive some sins in bullet construction. I think that is at least part of reason this trend is gaining here. I will probably get flamed by folks who think I am shading their choice but I am not. I don’t think any bullet construction is perfect for all scenarios and load for my hunting circumstances
So is this trend good for masses. I don’t think so. People wonder why manufacturers don’t recommend their match bullets for hunting. It is because of the history of hunting bullet design not some fuddery or lack of understanding. Despite the long range trend, for every guy that shoots a deer or elk broadside at 300+ yards there is probably 500 that shoot one quartering at under 100 yards even with “long range ammo”. Bullet makers know this and they want to make sure all of their hunting bullets handle both shots well as often as possible. This is why somebody like Hornady will say their match bullets are not for hunting. There is NO design feature in a match bullet to limit expansion or retain weight to increase odds of penetration on non-perfect shots. Like they say it may or may not work. They don’t design match bullets for that and don’t care and certainly don’t want to hear people complain if they fail in that scenario.
Lou
They can’t keep up as it is, so why would they use more resources to promote a bullet in a different way (testing and marketing) when they can’t keep up as it is?Why don't they come out and make it public? Surely, they aren't adverse to an exponential increase in sales and profit. Hell, they could probably just make that one bullet and do record levels of business.
I've never seen anybody discount the lethality of larger calibers. I shoot a .308 and .35 Whelen in addition to my .25-06 for crying out loud.You must not be paying attention if you don’t hear the constant steam of guys trying to say a larger caliber isn’t as lethal because nobody can hit anything with it. Lol
Obviously we’ve been killing things just fine.
I enjoy being the devils advocate at times, because it’s easy to pick holes in some of the arguments.
Maybe we can get around the need to argue at all if we just say:You must not be paying attention if you don’t hear the constant steam of guys trying to say a larger caliber isn’t as lethal because nobody can hit anything with it. Lol
Obviously we’ve been killing things just fine.
I enjoy being the devils advocate at times, because it’s easy to pick holes in some of the arguments. I could care less what other people shoot - not once have I ever wondered what other people are shooting when I’m offline.
You said they can't sell hunting bullets to law enforcement. My duty rifle is loaded with issued "hunting" bullets sold to a law enforcement agency. Sigh, indeed.
Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Rifle Details
See Federal Premium LE Rifle detailsle.vistaoutdoor.com
These right?
You just made my point, and the post after this was even more so - rather than simply saying we shoot these small cartridges and they work great, there’s always a claim that nobody shoots a larger caliber well. LolMaybe we can get around the need to argue at all if we just say:
1. I trust you when you say you shoot large cartridges well. The concept of averages exists. Maybe you're an outlier.
2. The vast majority of people do not.
3. Their flinching and unfamiliarity with their rifles due to reduced practice make things worse the further the distance gets.
That way you can keep your manhood in tact and we can move on. You're not picking holes in any actual argument that someone has made in here. You're taking what is said in point #2, distorting it to say we're claiming no one shoots big magnums well, and then picking holes in the fake argument you made up. Congratulations, you won an argument with yourself.
You unknowingly made our point here while thinking I made yours. Unless a thread starts out with "I believe @TaperPin doesn't shoot big magnums well", people are literally always speaking about averages. It's the only way we can discuss anything. Gear, shooting, hunter behaviors, everything.Averages are a pretty low bar to aspire to, unless you want to be mediocre - do you think guys hang out in hunting forums aspire to be mediocre? The average hunter is pretty crappy at it. The average shooter that picks up a gun can barely hit anything.
I thought you were just trolling but I'm starting to think you actually don't get that this 20 page thread isn't centered around you.I don’t expect you to stop repeating these same worn out claims, but I will point them out from time to time.
I believe so.
I‘ve never said the small caliber guys should stop doing what’s been working. If it’s working and you guys enjoy it, then I wouldn‘t even try to change your minds - same for someone bow hunting, muzzleloaders, pistol hunters and whatnot.Keep shooting what you like, but until you can provide a reasonable metric for not shooting the smaller stuff, maybe lay off with the negativity.
I‘ve never said the small caliber guys should stop doing what’s been working. If it’s working and you guys enjoy it, then I wouldn‘t even try to change your minds - same for someone bow hunting, muzzleloaders, pistol hunters and whatnot.
I’ll try to add more so it doesn’t seem as negative
Were you lining up a shot on a bobcat with your 338?Yea, the point is everyone shoots better with lower recoil and muzzle blast. Idk how anyone could refute that unless they are non-human. I know that I take extra time to get right behind my .338 before taking a shot than I do with smaller rifles. 100% to do with knowing that the cannon will bite me if I don't. I missed a bobcat last season because I couldn't get square behind the rifle and didn't even shoot. Non-issue with basically anything else.
Whether or not recoil "bothers" you is absolutely 100% subjective but whether or not you'll shoot better with less recoil is non-debatable. Even more so at the extreme ends of the spectrum.