What caliber (not cartridge) is best for short barreled rifles when shooting heavy bullets?

[The Guide]

308 win doesn’t use slow burning powders.

To run heavy for caliber bullets, you would need to run slower burn rate powders to get to a velocity that would keep a 190+ grain bullet to 1800 fps at 440 yards. Nosler shows a max load of 2000 MR getting 2625 fps in a 24" barrel take 200 fps off that for the 8" barrel loss and you are at 2425 which is not much above the minimum requirement to make 1800 fps at 440 yards. The 308 Winchester might not be the right cartridge for the 308 caliber bullets in a short barrel. There may be some powder that would make it work.

Jay

 

[Taudisio]

I think you would also have to define "heavy" and work from there. For me, heavy is above the following for each caliber. These are not scaled properly but just what I consider "heavy" for caliber and easily found as conventional lead core bullets. All will be the ELD line except the .277, .284, and .308 since the ELD is lighter or way heavier and I'll use the ABLR bullet for that.

224 above 73 grains
243 above 103 grains
264 above 143 grains
277 above 150 grains
284 above 168 grains
308 above 190 grains
338 above 250 grains

We should also define terminal performance limits or minimum distance for consistent upset. I will choose a distance we should all strive to be proficiency at and all rifles should have capability to of 440 yards or 1/4 of a mile. This is 402 meters for our metric friends.

Given these limitations or definitions, we can begin to calculate what velocity we would need to see to maintain or obtain complete upset with bullets of the above weights at sea level.

For the .224 caliber, you would need about 2750 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .243 caliber, you would need about 2520 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .264 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .277 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .284 caliber, you would need about 2350 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .308 caliber, you would need about 2365 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .338 caliber, you would need about 2335 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

It seems that 440 yards from a 16" gun would be very obtainable with many cartridges in most calibers at sea level. As your elevation goes up the velocity at 440 yards will only increase and be better to a greater distance.

Jay

I love it. You did skip the 134gr 257 cal though. I got MV 2335fps to get nearly 1800 fps at 440 yards.

 

[DangerRanger]

I think you’re sifting through a ton of noise and anecdotes and coming to a conclusion from it.

I also don’t understand why the most “efficient” is really useful. To my brain the question should be around what meets your needs in a short barrel not what may be anecdotally slightly less velocity loss by inch.

My 16” tikka 6.5 creed shoots 130tmk at 2600 with imr4350

 

[KenLee]

It is an effective weapon for sure but punishment is handed out on both ends. My brother bought one for a saddle gun but sold it after a few boxes just because the horses got spooked even when a hundred yards away. He went back to an '06 with a 20" barrel.

Jay

The secret to comfort shooting a stock marlin 45-70 is the gbl. Heavier laminate furniture. Pachmeyer Decellerator recoil pad from factory. She's a pussycat

 

[HandgunHTR]

To answer the caliber question, I believe it is pretty much equal from 6mm-7mm, so you are talking 6 (243), 6.5 (264), 6.8 (270), and 7 (284). All of them perform pretty effectively in short barrels in the various chamberings.

For cartridges, good short-barrel performers are

1. 6X45
2. 6ARC
3. 6 Creed
4. 6GT
5. 6XC
6. 6.5 Grendel
7. 6.5 Creed
8. 260 Rem
9. 6.5X47
10. 6.8 SPC
11. 6.8X308
12. 7TCU
13. 7X47
14. 7-08

There are others that I didn't list that fall into this same category, but you get the gist.

 

[The Guide]

I love it. You did skip the 134gr 257 cal though. I got MV 2335fps to get nearly 1800 fps at 440 yards.

I didn't skip it persay but I didn't include it because there are no factory fast twist barreled 257 caliber rifles or factory ammo with heavy 257 bullets. Hopefully Hornady brings the 25 Creedmoor to market as a factory offering and we can remove that hole in the atmosphere.

Jay

 

[ElPollo]

I think you would also have to define "heavy" and work from there. For me, heavy is above the following for each caliber. These are not scaled properly but just what I consider "heavy" for caliber and easily found as conventional lead core bullets. All will be the ELD line except the .277, .284, and .308 since the ELD is lighter or way heavier and I'll use the ABLR bullet for that.

224 above 73 grains
243 above 103 grains
264 above 143 grains
277 above 150 grains
284 above 168 grains
308 above 190 grains
338 above 250 grains

We should also define terminal performance limits or minimum distance for consistent upset. I will choose a distance we should all strive to be proficiency at and all rifles should have capability to of 440 yards or 1/4 of a mile. This is 402 meters for our metric friends.

Given these limitations or definitions, we can begin to calculate what velocity we would need to see to maintain or obtain complete upset with bullets of the above weights at sea level.

For the .224 caliber, you would need about 2750 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .243 caliber, you would need about 2520 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .264 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .277 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .284 caliber, you would need about 2350 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .308 caliber, you would need about 2365 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .338 caliber, you would need about 2335 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

It seems that 440 yards from a 16" gun would be very obtainable with many cartridges in most calibers at sea level. As your elevation goes up the velocity at 440 yards will only increase and be better to a greater distance.

Jay

This is really the way to start this process. Pick a bullet or bullets in each caliber that you are interested in, figure out what terminal velocity you need at your max range and muzzle velocity you need to reach that. Then you can select cartridges and barrel length combos that will likely achieve those goals using an estimated 25-30 fps per inch of barrel length. The last steps would then be comparing recoil, cost, availability, and other factors like barrel and case life.

 

[77TMK]

To run heavy for caliber bullets, you would need to run slower burn rate powders to get to a velocity that would keep a 190+ grain bullet to 1800 fps at 440 yards. Nosler shows a max load of 2000 MR getting 2625 fps in a 24" barrel take 200 fps off that for the 8" barrel loss and you are at 2425 which is not much above the minimum requirement to make 1800 fps at 440 yards. The 308 Winchester might not be the right cartridge for the 308 caliber bullets in a short barrel. There may be some powder that would make it work.

Jay

I run a 168 TMK over 44.0 gr of Varget in an 18" cutdown T3X, and with a muzzle velocity around 2590 FPS. It does not pass 1800 FPS until around 500 yards. A 155 ELDM load ran a little faster ended up hitting 1800 about 50 yards shorter.

My hypothesis is that you can get at this quickly by plotting all available projectiles by BC. The highest BC bullet would lose the least amount of velocity over distance, and then it's a matter of finding a cartridge suitable to give it the best MV from a short barrel. Set criteria to say whatever can do 2600 FPS at muzzle from a 16" barrel.

So in looking at A-TIP bullet offerings:
.375>.416>.308>.338>.7mm>6.5>.257">6mm>.223

Just ranked by highest BC available. If you had a short barrel moving a 190 7mm A-Tip at 2600 FPS, it's not touching 1800 FPS until 700 yards.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

I think you’re sifting through a ton of noise and anecdotes and coming to a conclusion from it.

I also don’t understand why the most “efficient” is really useful. To my brain the question should be around what meets your needs in a short barrel not what may be anecdotally slightly less velocity loss by inch.

My 16” tikka 6.5 creed shoots 130tmk at 2600 with imr4350

Using Staball 6.5 my suppressed 16” Tikka is launching the 130 TMK at 2750.

 

[ElPollo]

To answer the caliber question, I believe it is pretty much equal from 6mm-7mm, so you are talking 6 (243), 6.5 (264), 6.8 (270), and 7 (284). All of them perform pretty effectively in short barrels in the various chamberings.

For cartridges, good short-barrel performers are

1. 6X45
2. 6ARC
3. 6 Creed
4. 6GT
5. 6XC
6. 6.5 Grendel
7. 6.5 Creed
8. 260 Rem
9. 6.5X47
10. 6.8 SPC
11. 6.8X308
12. 7TCU
13. 7X47
14. 7-08

There are others that I didn't list that fall into this same category, but you get the gist.

Barrel life may be important for some, most will never come close to burning out a barrel in a hunting rifle. Even if you do, replacing a barrel is fairly low cost when you figure the total cost of the package for an action, stock, trigger, barrel, and suppressor. Barrel life is part of my selection criteria for some guns and uses, but not all.

 

[Weldor]

Interesting. My 308 sb was pretty anemic 150's at 2400 average sometimes better depending on the load. 20" PRC 140s 2880. 6mm CM 20" 2890 2930. I just stick with the 20" BBl. seems to be a happy medium. JMHO.
A 270wsm might be the ticket for 18" bbl.

 

[DangerRanger]

Using Staball 6.5 my suppressed 16” Tikka is launching the 130 TMK at 2750.

Yeah I think we’ve spoken about that previously, it’s on my list to grab some! I may just have a slow barrel as I often hear about other people getting better velocity than I am.

 

[77TMK]

Interesting. My 308 sb was pretty anemic 150's at 2400 average sometimes better depending on the load. 20" PRC 140s 2880. 6mm CM 20" 2890 2930. I just stick with the 20" BBl. seems to be a happy medium. JMHO.
A 270wsm might be the ticket for 18" bbl.

Your chrono must be way off or something. M80 ball from a 16" is around 2700 FPS.

 

[pacoalcracker]

6.5x284 should work just fine.

 

[abbrown]

To answer the caliber question, I believe it is pretty much equal from 6mm-7mm, so you are talking 6 (243), 6.5 (264), 6.8 (270), and 7 (284). All of them perform pretty effectively in short barrels in the various chamberings.

For cartridges, good short-barrel performers are

1. 6X45
2. 6ARC
3. 6 Creed
4. 6GT
5. 6XC
6. 6.5 Grendel
7. 6.5 Creed
8. 260 Rem
9. 6.5X47
10. 6.8 SPC
11. 6.8X308
12. 7TCU
13. 7X47
14. 7-08

There are others that I didn't list that fall into this same category, but you get the gist.

Can I ask someone who knows this stuff well about 7mm-08 specifically? Getting one currently at 20” cut and threaded for suppressor. Have asked for 18” from gunsmith, but would 16” make sense if it would always be suppressed and I’m planning to shoot bullets in the 139/140gn size? I don’t currently hand load but have an option to work one up, and it would probably be a 160gn TMK. Also, it’s a 1:9.5” twist. Thx

 

[prm]

Not sure how you can identify powder burn rates without taking into account the cartridge volume. Powder volume and bore size, and then weight of bullet, drive desired burn rate.

The 338 Fed can use fairly quick powders with 200gn bullets (Tac, H4895, 8208, etc.)

 

[The Guide]

Not sure how you can identify powder burn rates without taking into account the cartridge volume. Powder volume and bore size, and then weight of bullet, drive desired burn rate.

The 338 Fed can use fairly quick powders with 200gn bullets (Tac, H4895, 8208, etc.)

A 200 grain .338 is lighter for caliber. My focus was using heavy for caliber bullets that give the best wounding and trajectory readings. When you put heavy bullets in a 338 Federal you have to slow down the powder.

Jay

 

[prm]

Yes, but the relatively slower powder in a 338 Fed will still be a much faster powder than the “slow powder” for a 338 WM for a given bullet. To find the fastest powder, you need the smallest cartridge volume for a given caliber that will get you the downrange performance you desire with your chosen bullet.

 

[Marbles]

Best? Really depends on the criteria. What you write in the OP would be using the criteria of efficiency.

I don't think burn rate matters. My experience is limited, but using a very slow powder (edit, relative to that cartridge) in a 16.5 inch 223 has given me the best velocity.

Theoretically a larger diameter gives more area for work to be done on the bullet, as force equals area times pressure a larger diameter exposed to the same pressure curve will pick up more energy. But, given that the larger bore alters the pressure curve, and bigger bullets are heavier, and velocity matters rather than KE, it is more complicated than that.

I get better velocity from my short 223 and 243 than I do the 308 and the 243 can throw higher BC bullets, so it holds on to it better. Personally I don't really care if the 308 has more KE.

Using sea level atmosphereics.
-My 16.5 inch 223 with 77 TMKs drops below 1800 fps at 440 yards
-My 17 inch 243 with 108 ELD-M drops below 1800 fps at 610 yards
-My 16.5 inch 308 with 178 ELD-X drops below 1800 at 470 yards

So, the 223 is more efficient than the 308 because it burns about half the powder for close to the same result.

The 243 is more efficient than the 308 because it burns the same amount of powder for significantly better results, even though it is a slower powder in a short barrel.

Edited to correct the 243 data, had the wrong velocity in AB.

 

[Taudisio]

I didn't skip it persay but I didn't include it because there are no factory fast twist barreled 257 caliber rifles or factory ammo with heavy 257 bullets. Hopefully Hornady brings the 25 Creedmoor to market as a factory offering and we can remove that hole in the atmosphere.

Jay

That’s fair, if you were willing to get a custom barrel though, it seems it would match the “efficiency” of the 338 and the recoil between a 6/6.5. That alone may be worth a barrel to someone.