What caliber (not cartridge) is best for short barreled rifles when shooting heavy bullets?

[deerhunter628]

Now it sounds like it could be the 7mm Backcountry.

 

[The Guide]

Now it sounds like it could be the 7mm Backcountry.

If that technology correlates to other cartridges in standard actions, it really could be a game changer. If we look at the 30-06 with a 18" barrel losing 200 fps from a 24" barrel and still being a 550 yard rifle at sea level but but the new case design gives an additional 200 fps then your a 675 yard gun at sea level. Take that to 5k feet and you go from being a 650 yard rifle to an 800 yard rifle. If this technology translates to other cartridges it will make short barrels common and suppressor use easy.

Jay

 

[TheGDog]

Well, I've seen a couple vids on the new 7mm Backcountry, and the whole idea behind it is they use that newer ?HSV? steel-cases to get higher chamber pressures of like 80,000K psi rather than the typical 65,000 for a big game cartridge.

The intention is to cater to those who like hunting with suppressor and want a shorter barrel length, but don't want to have to give up soo much velocity to get it. And I wanna say with like 18" I think it was? It got like 29##fps.

And obviously they have lots of projectiles to choose from for that one since the 7mm Rem Mag has been around a while.

 

[DagOtto]

I think you would also have to define "heavy" and work from there. For me, heavy is above the following for each caliber. These are not scaled properly but just what I consider "heavy" for caliber and easily found as conventional lead core bullets. All will be the ELD line except the .277, .284, and .308 since the ELD is lighter or way heavier and I'll use the ABLR bullet for that.

224 above 73 grains
243 above 103 grains
264 above 143 grains
277 above 150 grains
284 above 168 grains
308 above 190 grains
338 above 250 grains

We should also define terminal performance limits or minimum distance for consistent upset. I will choose a distance we should all strive to be proficiency at and all rifles should have capability to of 440 yards or 1/4 of a mile. This is 402 meters for our metric friends.

Given these limitations or definitions, we can begin to calculate what velocity we would need to see to maintain or obtain complete upset with bullets of the above weights at sea level.

For the .224 caliber, you would need about 2750 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .243 caliber, you would need about 2520 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .264 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .277 caliber, you would need about 2375 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .284 caliber, you would need about 2350 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .308 caliber, you would need about 2365 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

For the .338 caliber, you would need about 2335 fps MV to hit 1800 fps at 440 yards.

It seems that 440 yards from a 16" gun would be very obtainable with many cartridges in most calibers at sea level. As your elevation goes up the velocity at 440 yards will only increase and be better to a greater distance.

Jay

Thanks for the challenging thought exercise.

BC will make a difference on the required muzzle velocity to attain your goal impact velocity at your max defined distance.

But in general what Ive found when running these same kinds of exercises is your desired recoil level will be a major decision factor in determining the diameter bullet that is ideal.

With these more “realisitic” max shooting distances and low required MV you are going to have some fun potential cartridges to choose from in whichever diameter bullet you decide on. Except for perhaps .277 where I dont know of a pumpkin thrower cartridge. Doesnt pretty much every .277 cartridge throw pretty hot stuff?

Ive been running similar analysis for 2200 impact velocity at 400 yards. My goal being to know that any mono metal bullet will stand a great chance of fully opening / shedding petals at that max distance. In running that exercise and looking at recoils I initially was attracted to the hotter 6.8 and 7mms
Because I too run shorter suppressed barrels.

I eventually backed off of the really heavy/ high BC bullets in both diameters because I found that if you drop down one weight of bullet you can very significantly lower recoil and still meet velocity targets at 400–500 yards. For example, in 7mm this simple bullet switch allows me to drop from 7 Rem Mag to 7A.I and in the .277 diameter it allows me to drop from 6.8 Western to 6.8 WSM.

I think the point Im coming to is that it comes down to the specific bullet you choose on. And then plugging those at each diameter into a spreadsheet and then looking at reloading manuals to see which calibers will deliver the desired MV for each of the bullets at somewhere between the 3/4 and max load values in the books. From that you can narrow down ideal cartridges in each caliber and calculate recoil and make some final shortlist choices.

Fun stuff

 

[BigNate]

There is so much wrong in this thread its hard to read.

 

[HandgunHTR]

There is so much wrong in this thread its hard to read.

Other than the obvious use of "caliper" rather than "caliber", please inform us what is so wrong in the thread? I am truly curious.

 

[BigNate]

The level of speculation.
With no outlined goals by the OP, it's pure speculation about "what's best" for him. By mentioning suppressor use, some start looking for sub-sonic performance, only then does the OP mention 400 yards I believe it was. Still no other goals.
Very few people can shoot well enough at 400 yards to not just be minute of deer. But what's this to be used for?
Short barrels, heavy for caliber bullets in whatever caliber are all limited in performance by case capacity.
Choosing the level of performance first is key to good decisions. How much recoil is acceptable? Are you choosing the bullet first? Choosing a bullet that yields the wound channel desired, can be done with about any caliber.
The powder burn rate for a shorter barrel does usually need to be faster than a longer barrel with equal bullet weights unless you enjoy big fireballs.

The misuse of caliper is hilarious. Though the wound might be devastating at close range if you could get them to fly straight, and the cost would be prohibitive for most.

 

[HandgunHTR]

The misuse of caliper is hilarious. Though the wound might be devastating at close range if you could get them to fly straight, and the cost would be prohibitive for most.

Thank you.

Hey, my old Starretts are pretty pointy. I should carry them around in my back pocket and chuck them like a hatchet when I run out of ammo on pig hunts.

 

[Packmansion]

Simmer down!

 

[WyoWild]

My Howa Mini Action is 6 ARC with a 20" barrel is the same length as my Tikka 18" 6.5 CM. The 6 ARC shoots a 105gr VLD at 2660fpa. The 6.5 CM shoots a 130gr TMK at 2640fps. The have very similar trajectory and impact velocity.

For a 16" barrel I would probably go with a 6 CM with a 105gr bullet you should be around 2800-2850 which should pretty easily give you 100-200yd more range than the 6 ARC or 6.5 CM.

25 Creed should do the same with a bit more recoil.

Just depends on how big of a bullet you want to deliver on target.

 

[The Guide]

The level of speculation.
With no outlined goals by the OP, it's pure speculation about "what's best" for him. By mentioning suppressor use, some start looking for sub-sonic performance, only then does the OP mention 400 yards I believe it was. Still no other goals.
Very few people can shoot well enough at 400 yards to not just be minute of deer. But what's this to be used for?
Short barrels, heavy for caliber bullets in whatever caliber are all limited in performance by case capacity.
Choosing the level of performance first is key to good decisions. How much recoil is acceptable? Are you choosing the bullet first? Choosing a bullet that yields the wound channel desired, can be done with about any caliber.
The powder burn rate for a shorter barrel does usually need to be faster than a longer barrel with equal bullet weights unless you enjoy big fireballs.

The misuse of caliper is hilarious. Though the wound might be devastating at close range if you could get them to fly straight, and the cost would be prohibitive for most.

Congratulations on bringing up a 6 month old dead thread to tell me how dumb I am for trying to have a discussion on if there is an optimal caliber for shorter barreled rifles regardless of the cartridge. Your response added nothing. You might be minute of deer at 400 but if you practice more you might get better but that's making assumptions just like you did.

Jay

 

[BigNate]

Sorry you felt this was personal Jay. My post wasn't meant to be, but the question wasn't bad just incomplete as to what parameters you wanted. The others, myself included were left to our own ideas.
What did you decide on? How's it working out?

 

[The Guide]

Sorry you felt this was personal Jay. My post wasn't meant to be, but the question wasn't bad just incomplete as to what parameters you wanted. The others, myself included were left to our own ideas.
What did you decide on? How's it working out?

My apologies then. While I'm still compiling data, my initial research has shown me that in 223, Grendel, and standard boltface cartridges the .224 and .243 caliber ofter the best balance of powder use, velocity, barrel life and minimal recoil in a short barrel. As you move up to a magnum boltface, the .224 and .243 calibers become highly overbore leading to sub 1k round count but moving up to .264 caliber cartridges and you see similar results to the lower boltface cartridges.

Jay

 

[BigNate]

I'm seriously considering a 257 PRC with a fast twist for the 130+ with a can and 20". The case capacity isn't there for a short barrel with a Creedmoor size case.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

The case capacity isn't there for a short barrel with a Creedmoor size case.

The 18" 22, 6, 25 and 6.5 CM's in the room, "Hold my beer and watch this".

 

[KyleR1985]

A 16” suppressed 6 dasher pushes 108eldm at 2650-2700 with Varget and 2700-2750 with lever. For hunting barrel life, should be a few thousand rounds at minimum.

My rifle is under 7.5lbs scoped and suppressed with a SWFA 3x9 and DD wolf hunter, and 5 rounds(4 in mag one in chamber). I can easily stay in scope on target at that recoil with thay rifle weight.

I would say that short barrel and light weight go hand in hand. This rifle seems to have a bit less recoil than an 11.5lb 6creed shooting 108’s at 2850.

If we stick with your minimum velocities, I would think a 6ARC would get you there. I think i was in the 2600-2650 range with handloaded 108’s in 16” barrel with lever. The dasher gets you an extra 100fps and what seems like barely noticeable recoil difference to me.

 

[hereinaz]

I'm seriously considering a 257 PRC with a fast twist for the 130+ with a can and 20". The case capacity isn't there for a short barrel with a Creedmoor size case.

I shoot a 25 SST and with a 20” barrel will probably get over 3050 fps. That’s basically a 1000 yard gun with the 133.

I am building a 6 PRC to get velocity out of a shorter barrel with less recoil.

A 22 in the creed case is pretty much a “magnum” and get you faster with the same BC but shorter barrel. A smaller bullet can always be made to go faster because of the way peak pressure works.

A 6mm Creedmoor pushes 2700 with factory ammo in a 16” barrel and is is 1800 fps at 550-600 depending on DA.

The rifle pistol data will be more valuable for 16” barrels than rifle data, IMO.

 

[Packmansion]

16" 6.5 creedmoor don't over think this lol.

 

[Shraggs]

My apologies then. While I'm still compiling data, my initial research has shown me that in 223, Grendel, and standard boltface cartridges the .224 and .243 caliber ofter the best balance of powder use, velocity, barrel life and minimal recoil in a short barrel. As you move up to a magnum boltface, the .224 and .243 calibers become highly overbore leading to sub 1k round count but moving up to .264 caliber cartridges and you see similar results to the lower boltface cartridges.

Jay

Before Al gore invented the internet a gun rag did a very comprehensive study doing exactly what you seek. For years I kept that copy but no longer have it. Barrel length was not a criteria and varied, nor was the array of high fragmenting bullets. But the goal was highest speed for any caliber given its powder requirements in standard bullet weights of the time, which wasn’t filled with high BC options.

What I recall was the whelen took first place followed by 358 w and 308 and oddly one of the magnums (300wm I think).

John Barsness years later showed that mid bores really need much faster powders and favored a double base.

My 20” BLR with 200 GR HH is 2670 fps and just over 400 yards at 1800 fps at 700’ ish. 225 partions were 2535. The partion isn’t heavy for caliber but standard in my mind with SD if .25. But I haven’t liked is wounds as much below 2200 fps, adequate. But with copper I prefer lighter for caliber. But haven’t killed near 1800 yet so jury is out for me yet on that bullet. I believe my 223/77 tmk is just under .25 SD but heavy comparatively and so devastating despite.

I love the 358 but it’s also emotional. I believe it is an option with 2 limits, recoil and no great bullet options since nosler stopped making a 35 cal 200/225 ballistic tips.

I’d echo a 338 fed stoked with TAC and not worry about heavy for caliber if I found a high BC rapid expansion option. Still more than enough for a quarter mile shot on an animal.

I don’t mean this in the wrong way at all - but my tikka with 223/77 tmk out to mid 400 yards is about as devastating as I’ve seen, in as light of recoil imaginable. Only limits are legal.

Your 6 arc seems about the next best achievable choice….

 

[Bluefish]

For 35 cal copper, I have used 160g cutting edge at under 2k mv from a 357 max pistol. Worked fine. CE claims 1500 minimum upset velocity and I think it’s probably accurate. Can also push them super fast 3k+ in a 35 whelen. Bear creek ballistics has some 35 cal that look interesting. The 41 Great Lakes guys love the 41 cal version. Again a 3k mv and minimum upset of 1200.