What are your thoughts on the Kung Flu?

[Mike7]

MattB,

Devils advocate here, so bear with me.

But what study shows a decreased rate of overall infection with the use of a regular mask in the presence of performing social distancing for an asymptomatic person who is indoors? Or for anyone social distancing outdoors for that matter?

Do you require this information before you place mandates on people in America?

And shouldn't some people be contracting this disease now before winter hits the northern hemisphere? A lot of very low risk people have not been allowed to contract this like H1N1 (that had a much lower death rate than we expected after it hit here in Sept/Oct and ran through the still open schools). How many people could be potentially killed this winter because of mandates placed now?

What unconstitutional mandates do you suggest for the vast majority of America which has a very low death rate so far...such as there not being a single death in the several counties in my health district, despite a crap ton of people with severe chronic illness here who will die here within the next 1-2 years regardless of COVID or the flu?

 

[ODB]

But things are not always as they seem. Take that same mask and soak it in water. Now it's even harder to breath through, yet its filtration properties are nearly gone.

You may prevent "some" from escaping but does that really make a material difference? You can also throw a handful of salt in the ocean and say you've increased the salinity.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

so if a mask is wet and is harder to push air through, moisture will pass through unabated? Please explain.

like it or not, masks work. Are they perfect, no, but they do work.

to put it another way, do you cover your sneezes or coughs? If so, why?

not Sure why it’s so hard to see the parallel here...

 

[KChunter71]

Are we there yet?

 

[jmez]

. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-p...tary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

so if a mask is wet and is harder to push air through, moisture will pass through unabated? Please explain.

like it or not, masks work. Are they perfect, no, but they do work.

to put it another way, do you cover your sneezes or coughs? If so, why?

not Sure why it’s so hard to see the parallel here...

. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1524265/


. https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85814

I can send you a master's thesis on the ineffectiveness of a surgical type mask in filtering particles the size of viruses as well if you would like to read it.


Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[Mike7]

Don't be an ass, just wear your g*d damn MASK.

Austria Has 90% Drop in Coronavirus Cases After Requiring People to Wear Face Masks

Austria managed to slow down the rate of coronavirus cases in the country by 90% after requiring everyone to wear a face mask. Meanwhile, other countries are struggling to keep the number of cases and fatalities low.

www.sciencetimes.com

For Austria it looks like they added masks for supermarkets and added limiting the number of people in these stores, and also protected high risk people by allowing them to stay home from work all around April 1st. They also further encouraged distancing guidelines already started in March.

That seems like a big stretch saying that using masks caused decreased infections.

 

[highstepper]

The initial guidance that no one needs a mask from the CDC, the Surgeon General, and others seemed to have been based on the fear that all of the N95 and surgical masks would be scarfed up and there would be none for healthcare workers. Not exactly scientific fact, just political public health expediency. And the scenario they were trying to avoid came to pass anyway. As pointed out by Mike7, the response has been incoherent at times, shameful at others.
It's fairly well proven that almost any mask will mitigate (not absolutely prevent) an infected person's spew of virus laden particles, and wearing a cloth or surgical mask is not totally effective but gives some protection to uninfected people from inhaling said particles. Unless you're wearing a properly fit tested particulate respirator (N95) it isn't bulletproof.
Here's the thing, we are all going to have to live in an environment that requires mitigation of the risk of the disease, unless we want more instances of explosive spread and more instances of sometimes spastic government reaction.
I don't want this crap. Neither do you. You might skate by unscathed or you might get low sick and spread this to someone close to you who can't handle it. If wearing a mask and/or keeping a safe distance helps tamp this down over the next few months, then I'll do my part. If it inspires enough confidence in people to get out of the house and restart the economy, then maybe it's worth the aggravation.
We have people dying at home of heart attacks because they are afraid to go to the doctor or call 911. In our hard hit area, our ambulance service has seen a spike of DOA's from non-covid disease where people wait too long to seek help. Like as many so far this year as we had all of last, plus some. If they are too scared to call an ambulance when they have crushing chest pain, I'm betting they won't be real keen about going to the Ford dealership to buy a new truck when the economy reopens , either.
We will live with this for months, if not a couple of years. God forbid. The way I see it, if we all take some personal responsibility for mitigating spread, it will go a long way towards keeping the government out of our affairs. Now that covid models and death rates have become political fodder, I want to do my part to be able to travel freely and live my life. Which I won't be able to do if our politicos think they are compelled to do something drastic to maintain their grip on power.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

The list of things which don't make sense to me with this whole thing is many pages long, but here are a some from memory.


Late January and the month of February:

The media playing down the numbers coming out of China which suggested potentially up to an approx 2.5% death rate, many times that of the death rate of the average flu season potentially.

WHO states that the virus isn't transmitted between people.

During this same time Trump Admin is called racist and unnecessarily reactionary for closing international flights from first China, and then again later Europe and other parts of Asia.


Into March and well after the first noted community spread here:

The media is suddenly going crazy about how everyone was going to die from COVID, and that the Trump Admin is killing people because they didn't lock the whole country down earlier, couldn't supply all of the medical providers with PPE (providers who are supposed to be doing this on their own), and they had delayed a test which was about as accurate as the flip of a coin.

Models come out which predict over 2 million people will die, with little to no additional data.

Later in March, during the freak-out, draconian lock down measures are instituted by many states for healthy (not ill) people, which were completely untested measures and still remain nebulous at best...but at least some of them kind of made sense initially. These are instituted with the express intent of flattening the curve so time can be used to ramp up PPE production within the US and ensure that hospitals would not be overrun....of course that goal post has been moved now, at least by the media and many state governments.

Trump Admin is derided by the media for not taking national control over some states, despite over 2 years of a constant media drumbeat about Trump being a dictator.

Some state governors/state health directors make poor decisions, generally by dictating things from the top down without consultation with regional health districts or providers on the ground....e.g. sending COVID+ patients back to nursing homes, decreasing buses so that more people are crammed onto fewer buses, closing down parks so that fewer people are crammed into smaller public areas, controlling medications even after shortages are addressed instead of leaving this to local treatment teams, etc.

The media and progressives still come out against the Feds controlling our borders, and are still silent at best regarding the danger of China controlling production of so many of our essential goods, including medical goods which were needed in this pandemic, and which have been continually found to be in short supply or recalled by our FDA, even during the 15 years prior to the pandemic.


April:

Criminals are let out of prison, including young criminals...to go where?

Some data starts coming in from here and around the world. Media freak out continues, with the media only reporting on data which perpetuates their narrative, despite empty hospitals around most of the nation.

People, particularly those who are heavy media consumers, are afraid to go to the hospital despite other serious health problems, with regional health district recommendations completely ignored. Who knows how many people this will kill? No one knows yet.

Congress spends more money than we can ever pay back (and according to many, it is still not enough), enslaving future generations, and decreasing how far our future tax dollars go in providing govt services forever.

Many people, "like on this forum every day", react to every little far less than perfect study with often generalized strong opinions (some of which would infringe upon Constitutional rights) about actions and outcomes for the future that are scarcely warranted by the minimal available data. Possible correlation doesn't equal causation, in vitro studies doesn't always equal in vivo results, etc., etc.

Many state govt's on the other hand are afraid to change course at all despite new data. In fact, they double down on restrictions and enforcement, to include forcing people into their houses which many studies show is the number one place to get COVID.


Later in April:

Not only Trump and some state governments are getting called murderers if they open any portion of increasingly Unconstitutional lock downs, but now people who are protesting some of the draconian measures, are being called Nazi white supremacist murderers.

The UN suggests that 135 million people are already now on the edge of starvation, just with the disruption in economies to this date from the COVID response, but that up to 1 billion people world wide could be starving (by next year I think, can't remember the that date) if the current COVID economic shutdowns are continued.

Governors tell people that they can turn up or down their restrictions on people at a whim, and don't expect to release that power until a vaccine is produced....despite that the likelihood of a really effective vaccine in the near future is slim to none. Also, if no vaccine is available, they talk of the need for restrictions until testing and tracing is almost universal...this for a disease often without symptoms, and with Ag testing that is not very sensitive, and Ab testing which is not very specific.

Epidemiologists and doctors, who suggest that for a large portion of the population COVID is likely only as deadly or less deadly than the flu and that maybe these people should be allowed to get COVID sooner rather than later, are called wackos and fake news by the media, tech companies, and state governments and even some medical societies...despite that none of their data or conclusions are challenged on a scientific basis.

Police have time to set up stings to arrest hair stylists who cut hair at people's homes or have time to scour parks to arrest people for not social distancing appropriately, but they don't have time to stand at a busy park, trailhead, or boat ramp to encourage people to use good anti-infection precautions or suggest a nearby park or boat ramp.

Some prior recommendations are now turned into authoritarian measures which are enforced under fine or imprisonment...beaches are closed, people are forced to wear masks outside, people can't attend church even while in cars, people are arrested for not social distancing outside, citizens are encouraged to report others for not social distancing, people can't get a haircut/go fishing/or buy seeds but can shop for marijuana & alcohol.

Govt's that allow people to work and provide for themselves (with people using their own judgement to keep from getting sick) and people who don't wear a mask at all times and in all areas of the country are both told that they are killing people now? So are these "people" that are being killed, the kind of people that were never going to get COVID at all?

BOOM SHAKA LAKA! We got a winner folks. Smartest man on Rokslide.

 

[RyanT26]

An interesting poll of Officers and sheriffs deputies about what they thought about the covid decrees. It’s worth a read.

3,200 Officers Weigh in on COVID Decree Enforcement - Calibre Press

In a recent national poll of law enforcement officers, Calibre Press asked a series of questions related to the enforcement of the pandemic-inspired decrees that have surfaced across the country. 3,234 officers responded. Here are the results: Years on the job. The majority of respondents—more...

www.calibrepress.com

 

[Billinsd]

Interesting story https://www.foxnews.com/health/how-this-n95-mask-could-put-others-at-risk-for-illness

 

[MattB]

MattB,

Devils advocate here, so bear with me.

But what study shows a decreased rate of overall infection with the use of a regular mask in the presence of performing social distancing for an asymptomatic person who is indoors? Or for anyone social distancing outdoors for that matter?

Do you require this information before you place mandates on people in America?

I believe your are being deliberately misleading as, at least here in CA, the notion is to wear masks when social distancing is not possible (e.g. grocery store). I haven't heard any recommendations regarding wearing masks while social distancing. Not sure the point of arguing something that isn't.

That said, what study shows the opposite? To my (limited) knowledge, none exists. Given this is a new disease and given what we know of other diseases, why not wear them in conditions that are deemed to warrant mask usage until we have better information?

Especially in light of evidence that masks have been part of a regiment that has significantly reduced the prevalence of the disease elsewhere?

And shouldn't some people be contracting this disease now before winter hits the northern hemisphere? A lot of very low risk people have not been allowed to contract this like H1N1 (that had a much lower death rate than we expected after it hit here in Sept/Oct and ran through the still open schools). How many people could be potentially killed this winter because of mandates placed now?

A number of assumptions here: Lots of low risk people have died from this disease, this isn't as binary as you imply. Moreover, I do not believe we have evidence of seasonality. Answering the question is pointless as neither you or I know enough to even speculate.

Maybe this disease dies down over summer and is controllable in the fall through testing and selectively quarantining the ill and those they have been in contact with, which could result in even fewer deaths?

But if we are going to use speculation as the basis for policy, I'd rather just wear a mask.

What unconstitutional mandates do you suggest for the vast majority of America which has a very low death rate so far...such as there not being a single death in the several counties in my health district, despite a crap ton of people with severe chronic illness here who will die here within the next 1-2 years regardless of COVID or the flu?

Uh, none. What unconstitutional mandates do you suggest?

 

[durangobrad]

Interesting story https://www.foxnews.com/health/how-this-n95-mask-could-put-others-at-risk-for-illness

Stopped reading here:
“Still seeing a lot of these masks out there, it's confusing, because they are called N95 — but the ones with the **valves** or openings on the front are NOT safe, and may actually propel your germs further!” the tweet reads.

Sent from my F1 using Tapatalk

 

[Billinsd]

Stopped reading here:
“Still seeing a lot of these masks out there, it's confusing, because they are called N95 — but the ones with the **valves** or openings on the front are NOT safe, and may actually propel your germs further!” the tweet reads.

It's not a tweet, it's a story. Is the story not correct? It's on a lot of different news sources, not just Fox. Here's what I copied from 3M "The proprietary 3M Cool Flow valve is designed to release hot, humid exhaled breath quickly, helping to prevent an unpleasant build up of heat inside the facepiece a significant cause of discomfort to respirator wearers." Sounds to me that the valve is meant to open and close. It's very logical if you are wearing a mask with a small vent at the front, that if the vent is open all the air and particles would travel at a much greater velocity. And guess what, travel further. What do you remember about the venturi effect in your Fluid Mechanics class? You can google it too. Cheers. Bill

 

[Jacack]

 

[JustJustin]

Stopped reading here:
“Still seeing a lot of these masks out there, it's confusing, because they are called N95 — but the ones with the **valves** or openings on the front are NOT safe, and may actually propel your germs further!” the tweet reads.

Sent from my F1 using Tapatalk

The dust masks WITH valves are designed for the guy sanding drywall, running a rock saw in concrete, the guy scraping dry chicken litter in barns, etc. Their purpose is too keep small particles OUT. Since the air you exhale is going back out to the dirty environment, it doesn't need to be filtered again, as it was filtered on its way IN. The value just makes exhaling easier.
The theory with masks for coronavirus is that it keeps micro droplets when you exhale, sneeze, cough, or talk, IN. But if your mask has a valve, positive pressure on the inside of the mask (like when you exhale) opens the valve, creating a hole that lets all the air out rapidly without filtering it. This blast of air is focused as much or more than normal exhale through the nostrils, hence the conclusion that it doesn't help at all or may actually be counterproductive.
There's a good reason medical grade masks don't have a valve.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

^^That is true. But it's a pandemic, and it's a mask so it's gotta be good. Like homemade cotton ones.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[JustJustin]

^^That is true. But it's a pandemic, and it's a mask so it's gotta be good. Like homemade cotton ones.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

FWIW.
A properly made homemade cotton mask works better than a dust mask with a valve as far as keeping the coronas to yourself (if you got the virus). But like jmez said it's a pandemic (specifically, COVID-19) and so to all the politicians and governors who really don't care that much how low the 2021 census is, you could wear a manly mask made from stretched iron!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[jmez]

Masks are funny things. They magically don't allow viruses out but let them in. Amazing.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

 

[JustJustin]

Not exactly where this came from, so take it with a grain of salt. I'd be happy if someone had the time to research it and share what they find.
But interesting evidence of lockdown/stay-at-home "helping".

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[JustJustin]

Masks are funny things. They magically don't allow viruses out but let them in. Amazing.

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

A properly fitting valveless mask probably does slightly reduce the amount of airborne microdrolets but it also concentrates the virus on the mask so when you touch your mask, it gets on your hands, and then it gets on the door knob, light switch, etc. Just wear the stretched iron one, or maybe a baseball "mask"

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk