We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[Maverick1]

If it’s make believe, why is CO looking reforming their system and we saw MT implement “apply or lose your points” a few years ago? We got some bad stuff with that (outfitter preference) but some of what changed was for our benefit.

We seem to forget that ultimately, the folks who make these decisions work for us. The systems can and do change.

The make believe part is starting a thread on an internet forum that will make any difference whatsoever in how the numerous states manage their wildlife populations, season structures, tag allocations, or result in point system reforms.

 

[Jethro]

Try to solve point creep if you wish. But you’ve got to understand it before you can solve it. @BuckeyeRifleman you’ve said many times that the major problem with creep is people buying points and not applying. That simply is not true. How would a person, not entered in the draw, change the out come? They can’t.

Point hoarders are our friends. Don’t force them into the draw.

Point creep is a supply and demand consequence.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

The make believe part is starting a thread on an internet forum that will make any difference whatsoever in how the numerous states manage their wildlife populations, season structures, tag allocations, or result in point system reforms.

Of course a thread on an Internet forum in and of itself won’t make a difference. But some of the ideas that come from the conversation might. There are plenty of people who post here who are very active and influential in wildlife management and conservation space.

One thing is certain, making snide remarks when someone wants to discuss solutions to an issue negatively affecting most western hunters on a western hunting forum certainly isn’t going to help.

You do realize it’s a discussion forum right? It’s sort of why this place exists.

 

[IDVortex]

You do realize it’s a discussion forum right? It’s sort of why this place exists.

False, it's for memes.

 

[JFK]

I don’t think point are all bad. They do allow you to plan for a hunt, get time off, etc. Main problem is that more people accumulate points every year. In Wy the days of doe and cow tags being easy to draw are gone. They might as well just make them pref point draws for NR, but keep them reduced price. You’d get some guys in the low point brackets who’d use their points on does and cows just to go hunting, which would move people through the point system faster. It’s probably not a popular idea, but it would give people more options to burn their points. It would provide more consistent chance of drawing for the guy who just wants meat in the freezer, and would remove them from the bull/buck applicant pool. It might also take pressure off some of the doe deer and antelope populations since I guy isn’t going to put in for them automatically when he puts in for a buck tag. The whole draw would be more intentional…burn your points on what you want to hunt that year.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

Dwindling numbers of available harvest is a bigger problem than Bonus points. Take Arizona deer hunting for example:
1972- 66,905 1st and 2nd choice applicants for general deer. 74,096 permits issued 18% hunt success rate
2016- 77,834 1st and 2nd choice applicants for general deer. 42,034 permits issued. 36% hunt success rate

Bonus points are the least of our worries and are often the single biggest issue hunters complain about.

36% of 42,034 is more than 18% of 74,096 so there is no dwindling amount of available harvest, we just have to restrict who gets to partake in that available harvest due to hunter efficacy.


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[HuntHarder]

36% of 42,034 is more than 18% of 74,096 so there is no dwindling amount of available harvest, we just have to restrict who gets to partake in that available harvest due to hunter efficacy.


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Literally proving the point... Success rates are up and total number of available tags are down. Why do you think the number of tags has decreased?

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

I don’t think point are all bad. They do allow you to plan for a hunt, get time off, etc. Main problem is that more people accumulate points every year. In Wy the days of doe and cow tags being easy to draw are gone. They might as well just make them pref point draws for NR, but keep them reduced price. You’d get some guys in the low point brackets who’d use their points on does and cows just to go hunting, which would move people through the point system faster. It’s probably not a popular idea, but it would give people more options to burn their points. It would provide more consistent chance of drawing for the guy who just wants meat in the freezer, and would remove them from the bull/buck applicant pool. It might also take pressure off some of the doe deer and antelope populations since I guy isn’t going to put in for them automatically when he puts in for a buck tag. The whole draw would be more intentional…burn your points on what you want to hunt that year.

Nah I like the concept of being able to plan when I’m gonna hunt. Like I’ve said, Montana’s system works well for me.

I wouldn’t be opposed to cow/calf’s taking points. I didn’t draw mine this year and I would’ve burnt my one point if it meant a 100% odds this year.

 

[BuckeyeRifleman]

Requiring every applicant to apply for a hunt or lose points is in my opinion, one of the worse things you can do in a draw system with points. All those people are currently sitting on the bench, invisible, and they're the majority. If you force them to apply, the upper tier units will have explosive creep with multiple point jumps, and they don't even want the tag. I'd rather see a few here n there vs more than doubling the size of the app pools.

It would increase creep momentarily for a year or two but eventually things would normalize and get better. The issue is way more people buy points every year than actually apply. Most people sit on the sidelines until they think they can draw, causing creep to go up almost 1 for 1 every year.

The only issue with “apply or lose your points” is people applying to super high point units to avoid drawing, further skewing creep in certain units. Not sure how you could prevent that.

 

[JFK]

Nah I like the concept of being able to plan when I’m gonna hunt. Like I’ve said, Montana’s system works well for me.

I wouldn’t be opposed to cow/calf’s taking points. I didn’t draw mine this year and I would’ve burnt my one point if it meant a 100% odds this year.

I like planning on when I hunt too. That was my point. Giving people the option to use their points for cow/calf and doe tags would give people the option to burn low points, reduce points in system, fewer would get high points. Can’t say I’d always do it, but there are times when I’d burn 1-2 points on an almost-gaurenteed cow/doe tag. Every person that opted to do that would be one less that moved on to get more points to be able to draw a bull/buck tag, alleviating the log jam at the top. The state sells same number of points and tags for the same amount of dollars.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

multi-faceted issue with no single solution. States have found ways to make money off points, Insta-youtubers post non stop videos on how to apply where and what buttons to click, then make hundreds of videos about how you can hunt multiple states every year. Have 3- healthy generations right now hunting, willing to hunt harder longer and be more comfortable with equipment and tech that allows them to be more successful and garner more attention attracting others to do the same. Have game populations that fluctuate with increased winter severity, shed hunters, urban sprawl, etc... and are more intensely managed than ever before. CVD19 sent an entire population home and allowed them to work there, many of whom never went back and employers are more flexible than ever to provide weeks or months off. We seemingly have more people hunting now than ever before, and a diverse demographic set including locavores, youtubers, organic hunters, etc....Tell me again how to fix this?

The influencer thing drives me nutz and IMO is the single greatest detriment in recent days. The fact they are so unapologetically arrogant that what they're doing is noble makes it worse. "I'm great for the industry, my pros outweigh my cons, just ask me".

The rest is rolling with the punches.....

 

[wapitibob]

It would increase creep momentarily for a year or two but eventually things would normalize and get better. The issue is way more people buy points every year than actually apply. Most people sit on the sidelines until they think they can draw, causing creep to go up almost 1 for 1 every year.

The only issue with “apply or lose your points” is people applying to super high point units to avoid drawing, further skewing creep in certain units. Not sure how you could prevent that.

Double the number of applicants at every point level and tell me how it's going to get better in a year or two.

These were the point only numbers from 2020.

 

[roadrunner]

Supply and demand have nothing to do with drawing a tag. There are no controlable variables in context that will affect how many tags can be allocated. A million people can want them, and there will still only be 200 tags available in unit XYZ in the state of Wherever at a set price.

Managing for quantity over quality is about hunter distribution over a handful of months, which may very well increase animals taken.

And, if anyone thinks that states don't care about the opinions of out of staters, tell that to members of Wildearth Guardians when they get hunts and methods of take banned via legislation, the ballot box, and court decision...

 

[SDHNTR]

Literally proving the point... Success rates are up and total number of available tags are down. Why do you think the number of tags has decreased?

If you really want to raise a stink, post this in the long range forum!

Because apparently turret twisting and ballistic calculators and killing critters at 864 yards has not made hunters more effective. There’s no data to support that statement. (Tongue firmly implanted in cheek.)

 

[ladogg411]

If you run the math on high demand units with a bonus point system, your odds of drawing can actually decrease.

Exactly. Don't ever use MT as a model for anything. Some of the worst ideas ever came from MT.

Random,
BONUS
BONUS squared or cubed.

That is all that should exist in a modern World. No, save 20-50% and giver those out preference style. That doesn't work long term either.

 

[ladogg411]

The only issue with “apply or lose your points” is people applying to super high point units to avoid drawing, further skewing creep in certain units. Not sure how you could prevent that.

You prevent this by simply not having a preference system. In random or pure bonus/squared, that applicant always risks drawing.

Of course, you also need a strict no-return policy.

 

[xcskier_hunter]

The reality with these debates is that pretty much everyone is just trying to improve their own draw odds situation. However, even if every state was a random draw it's not like you would get to hunt more often. It's still the same number of tags and the same number of people vying for them. Realistically, if you are a serious hunter, the convoluted draw systems are probably an advantage since they allow a motivated person to apply strategically based off historical trends. A nontrivial number of people waste applications applying for hunts they have zero chance of drawing (or just not applying at all, which is why forcing them to apply makes no sense). In a random draw you'd have to compete with these people.

If people want to hunt more often, they need to push for more tags. For there to be more tags there needs to be more animals and/or we need to accept technological limitations that reduce harvest rates. You can't complain about states banning or limiting certain types of technology if you also complain about an inability to draw a tag.

 

[SDHNTR]

We’ve arrived at that point, we do need some sensible equipment restrictions, at least for rifle seasons.

 

[Glockster26]

We’ve arrived at that point, we do need some sensible equipment restrictions, at least for rifle seasons.

What equipment restrictions could you apply to rifle season?

 

[MuleyFever]

What equipment restrictions could you apply to rifle season?

No scopes. Or max power restrictions.