Varmint bullet for deer

[Taudisio]

I’m positive this has been discussed over various threads, but I want opinions on my setup. I have a 16” 6x45 and I may be over thinking this, but the bullet weight range I have chosen, gives me a lot of “varmint” bullets with 3 “big game” bullets that I haven’t found an accurate load for. Of course, the first varmint load I tried, shot half the moa (twice as well) I was able to get from the big game bullets. I just want to hear about experiences from people shooting deer with varmint bullets. I would also like everyone’s opinion on;

Shooting a 6mm, 87gr vmax at 2650mv, or 80gr ballistic tip (varmint) around the same velocity, would you use this on deer out to 400-500 yards? Would you only take a broadside/ribs shot? Trust the bullet to make it through the front shoulder into the vitals? Take a quartering away shot? Trust it to kill a 200”+ mule deer if he walked out?

I know deer aren’t bullet proof. I have a lot more testing to do, but you never know when the once in a lifetime deer could come walking around the corner while I’m out looking for any legal meat buck, and I don’t want to have any doubts. I am fortunate to have many options in rifles/calibers, but this rifle is by far my favorite one to carry. I should have 3 deer tags this year, one being a doe tag. My thinking revolves around these bullets are (probably) rated as varmint bullets for 243 velocities, I’m about 600-800fps slower at the muzzle, making me think they won’t be as explosive and penetrate deeper.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

I know deer aren’t bullet proof. I have a lot more testing to do, but you never know when the once in a lifetime deer could come walking around the corner while I’m out looking for any legal meat buck, and I don’t want to have any doubts.

I make sure my equipment gets the job done regardless of what animal I’m hunting. I hunt with .30 cals for all of my big game pursuits. Which .30 cal cartridge I choose determines my max range.

That being said, plenty of folks on here are shooting big game with match bullets and .223s short to moderate ranges depending on their setup.

I’d say your fine with the cartridge listed at very limited ranges. Less than what you listed.

 

[J_Jacobson196]

I’m positive this has been discussed over various threads, but I want opinions on my setup. I have a 16” 6x45 and I may be over thinking this, but the bullet weight range I have chosen, gives me a lot of “varmint” bullets with 3 “big game” bullets that I haven’t found an accurate load for. Of course, the first varmint load I tried, shot half the moa (twice as well) I was able to get from the big game bullets. I just want to hear about experiences from people shooting deer with varmint bullets. I would also like everyone’s opinion on;

Shooting a 6mm, 87gr vmax at 2650mv, or 80gr ballistic tip (varmint) around the same velocity, would you use this on deer out to 400-500 yards? Would you only take a broadside/ribs shot? Trust the bullet to make it through the front shoulder into the vitals? Take a quartering away shot? Trust it to kill a 200”+ mule deer if he walked out?

I know deer aren’t bullet proof. I have a lot more testing to do, but you never know when the once in a lifetime deer could come walking around the corner while I’m out looking for any legal meat buck, and I don’t want to have any doubts. I am fortunate to have many options in rifles/calibers, but this rifle is by far my favorite one to carry. I should have 3 deer tags this year, one being a doe tag. My thinking revolves around these bullets are (probably) rated as varmint bullets for 243 velocities, I’m about 600-800fps slower at the muzzle, making me think they won’t be as explosive and penetrate deeper.

My first question is, what's your impact velocity at 500yds with the 87gr Vmax? That will be the deciding factor. If it's >1800fps then you are good to go. I've killed a lot of deer with the 75gr Amax/ELDM in a 223rem, right down to 1800fps. I don't think you will have any trouble with 87gr Vmax as construction is very similar to the Amax/ELDM and you have a skosh more weight.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

If you want light bullets spend the money on something like barnes ttsx but even then id go with 150 or 165/168.

So your advice is to go the opposite direction in a completely different caliber. Ron Spomer much?

 

[SloppyJ]

My son shot his first deer with my 300blk loaded with 110gr Vmax. It's a 9" barrel SBR we were shooting suppressed. I wasn't too impressed with the terminal performance of that bullet. The deer did die but it ran a good ways. Shot was around 30yds and it had a case full of Lil' Gun.

 

[Taudisio]

My first question is, what's your impact velocity at 500yds with the 87gr Vmax? That will be the deciding factor. If it's >1800fps then you are good to go. I've killed a lot of deer with the 75gr Amax/ELDM in a 223rem, right down to 1800fps. I don't think you will have any trouble with 87gr Vmax as construction is very similar to the Amax/ELDM and you have a skosh more weight.

Drops below 1800 fps around 450. Realistically, I have not had to shoot a big game animal that far. I like to practice farther out and keep the option open, but I’d probably just get closer.

Just curious why you chose 1800 fps?

 

[wytx]

I would not use a Vmax on a deer .
I've seen those bullets not penetrate an antelope's hide from a 257 WBY.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Having seen some terrible penetration from varmint bullets before, I’d be very hesitant to use them on deer, but I’m sure not all of them are created equal.
You can find plenty of gel tests on YouTube for varmint bullets, some of them are getting 8” of penetration or less. I’ve personally seen a .22 WMR Vmax that blew up and failed to exit on a grey squirrel.

But a 6mm 87 grain or 6.5 100 grain varmint bullet is a lot different than the 30-55 grain .22 bullets I’ve seen first/second hand, so they might be fine. I’d just want to see how it does firsthand before I’d consider it

 

[Taudisio]

I would not use a Vmax on a deer .
I've seen those bullets not penetrate an antelope's hide from a 257 WBY.

What grain weight? MV and impact velocity? Shot placement? Angle of the lope? Did you get it down and were able to confirm shot placement?

 

[Taudisio]

Having seen some terrible penetration from varmint bullets before, I’d be very hesitant to use them on deer, but I’m sure not all of them are created equal.
You can find plenty of gel tests on YouTube for varmint bullets, some of them are getting 8” of penetration or less. I’ve personally seen a .22 WMR Vmax that blew up and failed to exit on a grey squirrel.

But a 6mm 87 grain or 6.5 100 grain varmint bullet is a lot different than the 30-55 grain .22 bullets I’ve seen first/second hand, so they might be fine. I’d just want to see how it does firsthand before I’d consider it

Your train of thought seems very similar to mine. “Might be fine” doesn’t work for me if it is a lifetime deer though! I am trying to hear what others experiences have been. I’m going to test them with water jugs, I may just buy my own ballistic gel and test it that way before the season too

 

[RockAndSage]

I think there's extensive proof here on Rokslide - photos, with witnesses, not apocryphal stories or Fudd lore - that varmint/match bullets can and do kill big game very well. There's nuance, however, that seems to get lost quite a bit in the arguing - they're not magic bullets killing anything with no trade-offs, nor are they useless spitballs that magically blow up on hide.

The most salient things I've pulled out of what's been shared, with evidence, are these - they're the parameters and limitations under which I'd use these tools:

1) Varmint/match bullets are pretty much going to destroy and shred whatever you hit, 8-14 inches deep and about 2-8 inches wide, depending on the bullet, caliber, and velocity - and .22TMK seems optimal for not destroying too much while also being very effective at killing quickly. Sectional density also seems to matter - .22cal 77gr seems more effective than 55gr. Some of the evidence for .30cal TMK/match bullets on big game was so devastating that it may cross some people's ethical lines for meat loss. Which also means:

2) Don't use these bullets like you would a bonded or mono - if you don't want to lose all the meat of a shoulder or backstraps, don't shoot there. It's not going to make the clean hole a TTSX will. Which also means:

3) Varmint/match bullets do not give you the margin of error bondeds/monos give you when shooting at oblique angles through large amounts of muscle and bone, or if you just make a bad shot - they're not going to have the penetration necessary to get to the vitals on larger game or more oblique angles, and may not kill effectively or quickly when not put into the vitals. Which also means:

4) You need to be more selective about where you shoot an animal when using varmint/match bullets, if you want the quickest kill with the least amount of meat loss - requiring better judgement, patience, and/or stalking skill for the best animal presentation for when & where you shoot, along with better precision on the part of the shooter. Which also means:

5) The greater ability of most shooters to shoot lower-recoiling rounds more accurately is a big advantage, and is helped further when using match bullets placed into lung/heart shots.


The bottom line for me on all this, is that I'd have zero hesitation to shoot a .223 or 6mm V-Max or TMK for big game, but if I'm shooting a 7mm or .30cal, I'll be using a bonded or mono.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Your train of thought seems very similar to mine. “Might be fine” doesn’t work for me if it is a lifetime deer though! I am trying to hear what others experiences have been. I’m going to test them with water jugs, I may just buy my own ballistic gel and test it that way before the season too

I know that the 6.5 90 grain TNT has quite a following in the grendel as a deer bullet and the new 100 grain ELD-VT seems promising too- both supposedly perform well at those velocities. Considering the quick kills I’ve seen from 80-85 grain (non-varmint) bullets in the .243 and 6mm remington, I could see how an 87 grain v-max would be very effective and not too grenade-y at 6x45 velocities. I’d just want to try it on a pig or some gel- or see the results of someone on here - before I used it on deer.

 

[Taudisio]

I think there's extensive proof here on Rokslide - photos, with witnesses, not apocryphal stories or Fudd lore - that varmint/match bullets can and do kill big game very well. There's nuance, however, that seems to get lost quite a bit in the arguing - they're not magic bullets killing anything with no trade-offs, nor are they useless spitballs that magically blow up on hide.

The most salient things I've pulled out of what's been shared, with evidence, are these - they're the parameters and limitations under which I'd use these tools:

1) Varmint/match bullets are pretty much going to destroy and shred whatever you hit, 8-14 inches deep and about 2-8 inches wide, depending on the bullet, caliber, and velocity - and .22TMK seems optimal for not destroying too much while also being very effective at killing quickly. Sectional density also seems to matter - .22cal 77gr seems more effective than 55gr. Some of the evidence for .30cal TMK/match bullets on big game was so devastating that it may cross some people's ethical lines for meat loss. Which also means:

2) Don't use these bullets like you would a bonded or mono - if you don't want to lose all the meat of a shoulder or backstraps, don't shoot there. It's not going to make the clean hole a TTSX will. Which also means:

3) Varmint/match bullets do not give you the margin of error bondeds/monos give you when shooting at oblique angles through large amounts of muscle and bone, or if you just make a bad shot - they're not going to have the penetration necessary to get to the vitals on larger game or more oblique angles, and may not kill effectively or quickly when not put into the vitals. Which also means:

4) You need to be more selective about where you shoot an animal when using varmint/match bullets, if you want the quickest kill with the least amount of meat loss - requiring better judgement, patience, and/or stalking skill for the best animal presentation for when & where you shoot, along with better precision on the part of the shooter. Which also means:

5) The greater ability of most shooters to shoot lower-recoiling rounds more accurately is a big advantage, and is helped further when using match bullets placed into lung/heart shots.


The bottom line for me on all this, is that I'd have zero hesitation to shoot a .223 or 6mm V-Max or TMK for big game, but if I'm shooting a 7mm or .30cal, I'll be using a bonded or mono.

I really appreciate your reply and thoughts that are similar to mine. I took a quick look, 6mm 87gr has a SD .21 vs the 77gr tmk at .219 so that is promising.

I never aim for the shoulder, always the ribs, but I’m not perfect and I’ve hit a shoulder or two. Im going to run the 87gr through water jugs, and then if I feel comfortable, I’ll use it on my 3 tags this year. Only one has potential to be a big deer. The other two are strictly meat tags. Like you said, I’ll be more selective on my shot placement. Either I’ll shoot the ribs, or if they are under 150 yards, quartering away, and I have a stable rest, I don’t have a problem with neck shots. I feel like a varmint bullet and a neck shot seem to go hand in hand. Less to get through and more fragments to damage the CNS for lights out.

I will never use a mono bullet again, unless the law forces me to. In my experience, a broadhead kills faster than a lung punch from a Barnes.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

77gr TMK and 87gr V-max have very similar form factors and likely similar jacket thickness, though I don’t have them cross-sectioned. 108 and 147 ELDM below for reference size/shape.

 

[RockAndSage]

I don’t have a problem with neck shots. I feel like a varmint bullet and a neck shot seem to go hand in hand. Less to get through and more fragments to damage the CNS for lights out.

I've been wondering about this too. Generally speaking I avoid neck shots, given that it's easy to get suckered with all that size but only a relatively small CNS opportunity, and a good chance to have a wounded buck run farther than they can with blown-out lungs. But with the explosive nature of those match bullets, I'm starting to wonder if it's not a more viable option.

 

[wytx]

What grain weight? MV and impact velocity? Shot placement? Angle of the lope? Did you get it down and were able to confirm shot placement?

The guy emptied his rifle on the pronghorn and yes it died but hardly any of the fragments penetrated, at least one did. Wasn't there when he shot but saw the aftermath. Guides were not impressed with the ballistic tips as they were back then, little different than vmax I admit so maybe they would work but why?
Use a more solid bullet, imo.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Weird, I’ve shot a medium sized whitetail buck at 20y with a 22-250/55gr BT’s at 3700fps. Found the solid base with pancaked jacket in the offside skin and everything in between was a disaster. Unfortunately no pictures as it was years before I thought to document unique terminal performance.

 

[ACHILLES]

I think you will be ok on deer at reasonable ranges. I’ve had 2 pass throughs on small does pushing 53 v max at 3500fps 150-200 yards. V max is not ideal but should work better at slower speeds. I see right now midway has these bullets in stock if you haven’t tried any of them.

85gr Speer spitzer bt
90gr Speer hot cor
90gr Sierra tipped game changer
85gr Sierra game kings
95gr Hornady SST
90gr eld x
90gr berger classic hunter
95gr smk
87gr berger vld

 

[Taudisio]

The guy emptied his rifle on the pronghorn and yes it died but hardly any of the fragments penetrated, at least one did. Wasn't there when he shot but saw the aftermath. Guides were not impressed with the ballistic tips as they were back then, little different than vmax I admit so maybe they would work but why?
Use a more solid bullet, imo.

I appreciate hearing your experience. I shot my first deer over 20 years ago with a 270 and the 130gr ballistic tips. Definitely made a hole. I just think with the slow velocity they may hold together more like a “traditional bullet at normal speeds”. Weatherby’s motto is completely opposite of slow! Picture putting a 150gr round nose made for a 30-30 in a 300 Weatherby. You would probably have a completely different experience between the calibers with the same bullet…..

 

[Taudisio]

85gr Speer spitzer bt
90gr Speer hot cor
90gr Sierra tipped game changer
85gr Sierra game kings
95gr Hornady SST
90gr eld x
90gr berger classic hunter
95gr smk
87gr berger vld

Yes-3.5” group at 100….so far
On my bench to try-afraid I may not have the velocity to get the expansion I want.
Have some, too long for proper seating
Ordered Friday, should be delivered 5/21
Too long
Too long
The last bullet I will try
Too long
The second to last bullet I will try