Vaccine?

[Bobbyboe]

Covid positive, here. Tested positive today after wife and one of two kids had it last week. Everyone in the family has/had mild symptoms. Parents, both of which are not healthy people, were also positive. Neither had symptoms.

Will I take the vaccine? Yes, I’ll take it 3-6 months from now. If I didn’t test positive I would have taken it immediately when made available. I am a first responder who works in a covid saturated area.

 

[Marbles]

I provided the examples above to show what can go wrong with trials. I didn't even bring up the narcolepsy side effects from the Swedish swine flu vaccine from a few years ago.. You can extrapolate the data how you see fit, obviously your comfortable with consequences.

So I take this vaccine and have some side effects whats my action of recourse? Absolutely nothing maybe when I loose my job and my house I might then maybe be able to get Medical card and some public housing?
I am not going to shoot something in my body 2x that the manufacturer has zero liability for. Honestly in some states herion dealers are held more accountable when somebody ODs from their stuff than these drug companies are going to held if somebody's dies from this vaccine.

I grew up in Appalachia I watched these drug companies dump millions of pills in small towns nobody ever heard of so they could line their pockets. Generations of families dead..over a 10 yr period they shipped 20.8 million pain pills to 2 pharmacies in a town of 2900 people and in that 10 yr period nobody at these drug companies asked any questions? Then when all this comes out in a congressional hearing they have to pay a fine that is probably less than .01% of the profits they made in that 10 yr period.
There are many examples where drug companies put profits 1st and everything else last.

I got no issue with folks that wanna get the vaccine. Just don't force me to take it. Its a personal decision everybody needs to make for themselves not forced upon you by Goverment and Big Business.

For myself, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to take it. Just to be clear.

What I am doing is a risk/benefit analysis using the available data. You see the risk to the vaccine is higher than COVID-19, I can find no data to support such a conclusion.

So, lets say you don't get the vaccine, you get COVID-19. You end up with cardiomyopathy. Then what? Both courses of action have risk, one has more than the other. Even your examples of worst case scenarios don't result in the course of action you are choosing being safer. Humans are not rational creatures, you are free to not take it and as much as I don't like the consequences if enough people choose that action, I will protect that freedom (though I will not try to protect anyone from the consequences of using that freedom). If I don't state the facts as they stand I have some culpability in that, so my goal is to be able to say "your blood be on your own head." Some people will disagree with me having any culpability if I remain silent, but I was raised believing that people have an obligation to stand up for what is right and I'm not willing to turn my back on that. That said, I have said about all I can and will probably let everyone else have the floor.

I don't remember you arguing for personal responsibility, so what follows is not directed at you, but those who have.

So, if you don't get the vaccine, and you end up in the hospital, are you going to use insurance to pay for it? Keep in mind insurance is based on pooled risk, so you are increasing risk and demanding that others pay for your action. That does not sound like personal responsibility to me.

 

[mtwarden]

16 pages and it still hasn't been shut down; I definitely lost that bet

I will say that after watching so many threads broaching any subject that was the least bit divisive, go down the tubes, that I am pretty impressed with the level of restraint (and even some cordiality!) of the members here. Maybe things are looking up.

 

[RRen]

Uh. Everything around it is hinky. How long has flu been around? Since Indians were still raiding the plains. That vaccine is only like 40 percent effective. So they trying to tell me they have found a vaccine that is 90 percent effective on a pandemic level virus that has only been around for less then one year. Haha....no thanks....they funny...which just that leads to, or should lead to all sorts of other questions. Unless everyone already drinking the koolaid...
I spent a long while in military getting stuck with all kinds of nonsense. Like the anthrax vaccine.

News flash....The government is lying!

Yep

 

[7Bartman]

Vaccines are a victim of their own success. Everyone points to the flu vaccine and it's variable effectiveness, however this can be explained by the variability of the surface proteins neuraminidase (N1) and hemagglutin (e.g. H1). However, many are ignoring things like polio, measles, mumps, rubella, shingles, rotavirus, etc... Many of which have efficacy rates over 90%. With SARS-CoV2 we know the surface spike protein has enough conservation (although it can mutate) that it will likely not mutate out of the range of the epitopes that the vaccines are being designed against.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

For myself, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to take it. Just to be clear.

What I am doing is a risk/benefit analysis using the available data. You see the risk to the vaccine is higher than COVID-19, I can find no data to support such a conclusion.

So, lets say you don't get the vaccine, you get COVID-19. You end up with cardiomyopathy. Then what? Both courses of action have risk, one has more than the other. Even your examples of worst case scenarios don't result in the course of action you are choosing being safer. Humans are not rational creatures, you are free to not take it and as much as I don't like the consequences if enough people choose that action, I will protect that freedom (though I will not try to protect anyone from the consequences of using that freedom). If I don't state the facts as they stand I have some culpability in that, so my goal is to be able to say "your blood be on your own head." Some people will disagree with me having any culpability if I remain silent, but I was raised believing that people have an obligation to stand up for what is right and I'm not willing to turn my back on that. That said, I have said about all I can and will probably let everyone else have the floor.

I don't remember you arguing for personal responsibility, so what follows is not directed at you, but those who have.

So, if you don't get the vaccine, and you end up in the hospital, are you going to use insurance to pay for it? Keep in mind insurance is based on pooled risk, so you are increasing risk and demanding that others pay for your action. That does not sound like personal responsibility to me.

You have valid points. I fully understand both sides of the coin. We could go back and forth with different senerios for days. My hope is that its treated like the flu vaccine if you want it get it, if you don't want it dont get it. I draw the line at having to prove you have had it to move about freely in this country. Not a slope I wanna start down. Thanks for civil discussion.

 

[Rokbar]

Just make sure your body is in good shape. A strong heart, lean waist, and quick mind is a good vaccine for about anything. Im not saying these will keep you from contracting covid, but they could save your life.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine that’s an ICU nurse at a larger hospital here in town. He told me about two pts. that he’s taken care of in the last month (both Covid positive), that suffered MI’s secondary to Covid. One is a fit, 23 year old kid and the other a mid 30’s guy that, while not in excellent shape, is also in decent shape. The coagulopathy‘s and subsequent blood clots they got, secondary to Covid, clotted off coronary arteries and caused them to have heart attacks. For the folks on here poo pooing SARS-CoV-2 consider this, if it’s you or your much loved family member that gets it, and is significantly impacted by it ie., MI, cardiomyopathy, chronic lung disease/issues, will you still feel the same way about it? Will you still say, yeah, but it only kills (insert whatever small % you want), of the infected population? Will you still say that it’s way overrated and just some kind of political BS? Fortunately for me I haven’t been affected by it, in so far as my family is concerned, and hopefully I won’t, but I can’t say that for the people that I care for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ndbowhunter]

why would a person take the vaccine if they have already had the virus?

That’s a genuine question.

 

[fwafwow]

I think this was mentioned in an earlier post, by someone who is much more knowledgeable - but I believe there are different types and durations of immunity, and there is not complete knowledge of how long the antibodies last from having had C-19.

 

[z987k]

You have valid points. I fully understand both sides of the coin. We could go back and forth with different senerios for days. My hope is that its treated like the flu vaccine if you want it get it, if you don't want it dont get it. I draw the line at having to prove you have had it to move about freely in this country. Not a slope I wanna start down. Thanks for civil discussion.

I agree with the fed government or state governments not mandating it, but I would advocate for anyone coming into the country must show they've had the vaccine, to include citizens or they get a mandatorry 14 day quarentine far away from other people. I also have no issue with a private employer refusing to employ someone should they choose not to get it, or refusing to do business with someone who doesn't have it.

 

[unclericco]

I’ll be getting vaccinated. Almost 40,000 people have been taking it with extremely high efficacy and almost no side effects at all. In the military, we had a ton of vaccinations so I prolly already have a chip anyway

 

[NDGuy]

I prolly already have a chip anyway

Yes, we all do one that tracks everything we do or say.

*Sent from my Iphone/Android*

 

[z987k]

Yes, we all do one that tracks everything we do or say.

*Sent from my Iphone/Android*

And we willingly go pay for it ourselves! Even replace it for a newer one every year or two!
And it tracks more than anyone could have dreamed of 20 years ago.

 

[EastMT]

 

[cnelk]

Once upon a time asbestos was considered 'safe'

 

[FullValue]

Marbles said​

"So, if you don't get the vaccine, and you end up in the hospital, are you going to use insurance to pay for it? Keep in mind insurance is based on pooled risk, so you are increasing risk and demanding that others pay for your action. That does not sound like personal responsibility to me."





The problem with that is it can go both ways. The same question can be asked if you decide to get the vaccine and you are one that has side affects are you going to use insurance to pay for the hospital or sue the people who provided the vaccine or jump on the lawsuit 10 years from now if it is determined you got cancer or something from the vaccine because or your decision.

We all have to make our own decisions and just because you feel strongly one way or the other doesn't make it right for someone else. Bottom line is to each his own and to each his own for the positive or negative consequences that may or may not occur.

But I'm all about standing up for something you believe in.

 

[19hunt92]

Vaccines are a victim of their own success. Everyone points to the flu vaccine and it's variable effectiveness, however this can be explained by the variability of the surface proteins neuraminidase (N1) and hemagglutin (e.g. H1). However, many are ignoring things like polio, measles, mumps, rubella, shingles, rotavirus, etc... Many of which have efficacy rates over 90%. With SARS-CoV2 we know the surface spike protein has enough conservation (although it can mutate) that it will likely not mutate out of the range of the epitopes that the vaccines are being designed against.

This sounds like a great conversation i would want to be involved in. I like diving down into the dirty details.

From a high level point though, i am torn because in the cases you mentioned "polio, measles, mumps, rubella, shingles, rotavirus", the effects are known and severe enough that the original "fix" could be as bad as the case itself BUT people at least had hope cause not getting the initial vaccine and catching the sickness was almost guaranteed bad.

Where as now, COVID is not bad MOST of the time and the affects of the vaccine are unknown. Its the picking out of the skittles jar thing all over again, either you pick into a bag with 1 out of 100 odds (no vaccine) or a bag of ?? out of 100 odds (vaccine).

The unknown and unfortunate POLITICAL influence in a HEALTH case is what makes this so touchy...what influence may or may not have gone into a perfectly viable and medical marvel of a vaccine that just as well may be tainted sugar water with who knows long term side effects.

 

[7Bartman]

This sounds like a great conversation i would want to be involved in. I like diving down into the dirty details.

From a high level point though, i am torn because in the cases you mentioned "polio, measles, mumps, rubella, shingles, rotavirus", the effects are known and severe enough that the original "fix" could be as bad as the case itself BUT people at least had hope cause not getting the initial vaccine and catching the sickness was almost guaranteed bad.

Where as now, COVID is not bad MOST of the time and the affects of the vaccine are unknown. Its the picking out of the skittles jar thing all over again, either you pick into a bag with 1 out of 100 odds (no vaccine) or a bag of ?? out of 100 odds (vaccine).

The unknown and unfortunate POLITICAL influence in a HEALTH case is what makes this so touchy...what influence may or may not have gone into a perfectly viable and medical marvel of a vaccine that just as well may be tainted sugar water with who knows long term side effects.

The problem here is you have the numbers wrong. With COVID, it's not just 1 out of 100 (maybe if you're only looking at mortality in young healthy population). However, at least double-digit percentage of people need to be hospitalized. This is quite significant b/c it comes as an opportunity cost to our healthcare system. Beds that could be used for other things (e.g. elective surgeries) are being filled with COVID patients, let alone the financial costs to this. With the vaccines we will have a very good handle on what the side effects are. For both the mRNA vaccines the topline results and side effects are published.
You are also making a logical fallacy with your above skittle analogy. As the skittles aren't of equal value. I'll take a 1/10 chance of having a sore arm and a little malaise for a day vs. a 1/100 chance of dying or giving it to someone with a 10/100 chance of death or serious morbidity.
Look, this thing isn't going to go away. We're getting herd immunity one way or another. I'll take my chances with the vaccine over natural infection.
I'm a strong believer in liberty, so do what you want. I'm just trying to provide some insight.

 

[Kilboars]

I don’t think anyone feels Trump was involved in the vaccine process. People don’t trust big pharma.

I heard many media type talking like Trump would rush through the vaccine to get out before the election. What he did was cut the red tape.