UM/S2H/Suppressors/Scopes and More!

[HighUintas]

Its hard to critique something that doesn't really exist in its final form at this point. But, a suppressor at 140dB, is not even close to being competitive at the $1,000 price point.

Does tone even matter if its 50-100% louder than its competitors? As sound is logarithmic an approximate 10dB increase is around a 100% increase in perceived loudness. As posted in the chart by B_Reynolds_AK.

Yes I'm very well aware how the dB scale works.

My point is that this can design is prioritizing weight, added length, balance, tone, and safe hearing level. Is there another suppressor on the market that is hitting on those same priorities? Not toy knowledge. The closest thing I'm aware of is the raptor 4 with 4" or 5" reflex. So, I think it would be interesting to compare it to that and I was surprised that it was only 4.4 dB behind the flush 8, when the 4 stack only had a 3" reflex. That's better than I assumed it would be.

Competitiveness at $1000 in the market depends on the person. Do you want to go for max dB reduction? Lowest weight? A combo? Or a mix with the benefit of better balance thrown in? The raptor 4 is $850 through Bauer. That can is not 3d printed either, so $1000 for UM's might be about right.

Regardless, it is an interesting approach to a suppressor design and I wish all other companies would be on the same page. The balance of my 22" barrel with a scythe on the end sucks really bad.

 

[Marbles]

Good post, even though its plainly stated ultimate db reduction isnt the main design objective of this UM can. I would like to think/hope a 3d printed can could have a more complex baffle design that should allow it to easily outperform the raptor 4 stack(its an obnoxiously loud one in my experience). We may not be able to percieve it at our ear as twice as loud, but 3db is a big difference and would definitely sound louder between suppressors side by side. I think OSHA says the allowable exposure time goes down by half per 3db increase but I may be off on that

The AB is 3D printed. (Correct me if I remember wrong, I'm not bothering to double check at the moment).

 

[Cameron.25]

The AB is 3D printed. (Correct me if I remember wrong, I'm not bothering to double check at the moment).

Its not. They're welded but the baffles are a unique spiral shape without an outer sleeve, hence the sex toy look. Their larger ones work amazing, but at the end of the day the 4 stack is just a 4 baffle welded can

 

[Roor]

Yes I'm very well aware how the dB scale works.

My point is that this can design is prioritizing weight, added length, balance, tone, and safe hearing level. Is there another suppressor on the market that is hitting on those same priorities? Not toy knowledge. The closest thing I'm aware of is the raptor 4 with 4" or 5" reflex. So, I think it would be interesting to compare it to that and I was surprised that it was only 4.4 dB behind the flush 8, when the 4 stack only had a 3" reflex. That's better than I assumed it would be.

Competitiveness at $1000 in the market depends on the person. Do you want to go for max dB reduction? Lowest weight? A combo? Or a mix with the benefit of better balance thrown in? The raptor 4 is $850 through Bauer. That can is not 3d printed either, so $1000 for UM's might be about right.

Regardless, it is an interesting approach to a suppressor design and I wish all other companies would be on the same page. The balance of my 22" barrel with a scythe on the end sucks really bad.

Generally speaking, I would consider almost all supersonic centerfire calibers to not be hearing safe. Hearing damage is not likely to occur in a hunting scenario with 1-2 suppressed shots, but for a range session ear pro is going on.

What's this obsession with tone? Yea... some suppressors sound better than others. So what? There is no mythical brown tone that hypnotizes ungulates to stand still so you can blast them with impunity.

Even with a reflexed suppressor, there's still 10ounces on the end of your barrel. That's just the nature of suppressors, and no way around the added weight. That's why I am going from a 24" barrel with Nomad LTI to 18".

 

[BBob]

What's this obsession with tone? Yea... some suppressors sound better than others. So what? There is no mythical brown tone that hypnotizes ungulates to stand still so you can blast them with impunity.

The only place I see this supposed need is the one that stated they try to fill multiple tags at once out of one herd of animals. For me and likely all of my hunting circle that’s never going to be a consideration. That said I’m pretty sure I don’t care much about tone.

 

[swavescatter]

Generally speaking, I would consider almost all supersonic centerfire calibers to not be hearing safe. Hearing damage is not likely to occur in a hunting scenario with 1-2 suppressed shots, but for a range session ear pro is going on.

What's this obsession with tone? Yea... some suppressors sound better than others. So what? There is no mythical brown tone that hypnotizes ungulates to stand still so you can blast them with impunity.

Even with a reflexed suppressor, there's still 10ounces on the end of your barrel. That's just the nature of suppressors, and no way around the added weight. That's why I am going from a 24" barrel with Nomad LTI to 18".

It's not just about weight - it's the length of the lever arm to the center of gravity.

Stab a watermelon with a short stick and lift it up. Pretty easy. Now do that with a 10' long stick (ignore weight of stick). Nearly impossible to pick up the watermelon now right?

Moving weight of the suppressor behind the muzzle effectively reduces the lever arm/torque of the weighted muzzle. Beyond the few ounces of barrel you chop off, that's why short barreled suppressed system feel so much more manageable.

 

[Roor]

The only place I see this supposed need is the one that stated they try to fill multiple tags at once out of one herd of animals. For me and likely all of my hunting circle that’s never going to be a consideration. That said I’m pretty sure I don’t care much about tone.

Yeah... even in that situation, there are just too many variables to pinpoint whether the suppressor's tone played a role in the animals staying still instead of running.

 

[Roor]

It's not just about weight - it's the length of the lever arm to the center of gravity.

Stab a watermelon with a short stick and lift it up. Pretty easy. Now do that with a 10' long stick (ignore weight of stick). Nearly impossible to pick up the watermelon now right?

Moving weight of the suppressor behind the muzzle effectively reduces the lever arm/torque of the weighted muzzle. Beyond the few ounces of barrel you chop off, that's why short barreled suppressed system feel so much more manageable.

I get it. But we are talking something like 2-3 ounces shifted 2-3 inches. Is that even measurable in field conditions?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

The balance of my 22" barrel with a scythe on the end sucks really bad.

Agree. I have KGM R30 on 22" barrel, and at 7.3" and around 13-14 oz with mount, it is noticeably heavy and awkward compared to my 18" barrel. I may get the 22" fluted to shave some of the forward weight off the #3 sporter to help.

I only have one suppressor, so nothing to go on other than the Pew Science data. It seems to me that if suppression is your #1 priority (45+ rating) you're still stuck with the 9" cans. If suppression is a priority, but handling and weight are others, sacrifices must be made, and a budget must be considered. Again, not an expert by any means, but I just don't see anything in the Pew data that tells me I need to spend over $600 on a suppressor. Please educate me on what I'm missing. Below are the 3 I'm considering for my next can.

Razor 7.62- 6.4" length / 39.5 suppression 33/38	$599.00
KGM R30- 7.3" length / 39.9 suppression 25/39	$599.00 (sale price and sometimes lower when in stock)
Polonium 30- 5.8" length / 37.1 suppression 25/36	$550.00

This is for practice and hunting situations only, so even though I believe all are rated for belt fed full auto, I won't ever abuse them. The shortest is the loudest, the quietest is the longest and heaviest, but the razor falls right in the middle.

 

[ezwy]

Agree. I have KGM R30 on 22" barrel, and at 7.3" and around 13-14 oz with mount, it is noticeably heavy and awkward compared to my 18" barrel. I may get the 22" fluted to shave some of the forward weight off the #3 sporter to help.

I only have one suppressor, so nothing to go on other than the Pew Science data. It seems to me that if suppression is your #1 priority (45+ rating) you're still stuck with the 9" cans. If suppression is a priority, but handling and weight are others, sacrifices must be made, and a budget must be considered. Again, not an expert by any means, but I just don't see anything in the Pew data that tells me I need to spend over $600 on a suppressor. Please educate me on what I'm missing. Below are the 3 I'm considering for my next can.

Razor 7.62- 6.4" length / 39.5 suppression 33/38	$599.00
KGM R30- 7.3" length / 39.9 suppression 25/39	$599.00 (sale price and sometimes lower when in stock)
Polonium 30- 5.8" length / 37.1 suppression 25/36	$550.00

This is for practice and hunting situations only, so even though I believe all are rated for belt fed full auto, I won't ever abuse them. The shortest is the loudest, the quietest is the longest and heaviest, but the razor falls right in the middle.

If you don't need the 30 cal, I would look at the Hydrogen S. 4 oz lighter. if thats worth 300$ to you. If I'm Spending 750 I might as well save weight and spend a grand. Or save a little money you won't miss and wonder if lighter would have been better.

 

[swavescatter]

I get it. But we are talking something like 2-3 ounces shifted 2-3 inches. Is that even measurable in field conditions?

Torque/moment of inertia is directly proportional to the length of the lever, so 2-3 inches is like 10-20% depending on barrel length, etc. Probably noticeable.

 

[Roor]

Torque/moment of inertia is directly proportional to the length of the lever, so 2-3 inches is like 10-20% depending on barrel length, etc. Probably noticeable.

What if the reflex is 15-20% heavier? 8.5 Ounce Scythe vs 10 Ounce reflex?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

If you don't need the 30 cal, I would look at the Hydrogen S. 4 oz lighter. if thats worth 300$ to you. If I'm Spending 750 I might as well save weight and spend a grand. Or save a little money you won't miss and wonder if lighter would have been better.

Thank you for the recommendation, and the Hydrogen S 6.5 is definitely another contender. While it's still 7" long, to your point its 4 oz lighter while being quieter than all the others I was looking at. Where did you see it for $750?

 

[swavescatter]

What if the reflex is 15-20% heavier? 8.5 Ounce Scythe vs 10 Ounce reflex?

Then maybe it's a push? Endless scenarios and at some point you'll have to make measurements and do calculus. Or just choose the system that works for you and is available when you need it. I certainly wouldn't hold up a build waiting for a non existent product. But if it's available when I'm ready to buy another it's interesting...

 

[ezwy]

Thank you for the recommendation, and the Hydrogen S 6.5 is definitely another contender. While it's still 7" long, to your point its 4 oz lighter while being quieter than all the others I was looking at. Where did you see it for $750?

Used to be on silencer shop. 850 now …

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Yeah... even in that situation, there are just too many variables to pinpoint whether the suppressor's tone played a role in the animals staying still instead of running.

I wouldn't get so hung up on the "tone"... It's last on the list of the stated requirements posted in this thread. Requirements 1-4 are what is needed for hunting rifles, with number 5 being a bonus if feasible depending on materials used, baffle design, etc.

1). Hearing safe- sub 140dB at shooters ear
2). Shortest added oal to rifle
3). Better balance to the rifle
4). Around 10oz or less
5). More of a hollow sound if possible.

 

[HighUintas]

That list was added later in the thread. The way it was initially presented made it sound like time was a much higher priority, doubly so with UMs slogan "chasing tones not decibels".

That list is how my priorities are laid out, but I also want it as quiet as possible. So I'm sort of between the nomad ti xc, raptor, and the UM. So I'll wait until there's some testing info out.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Testing….



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[HighUintas]

Testing….

View attachment 842320

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Is the color variation how they came off the 3d printer? Or is it oxidation from heat?

 

[Ryan Avery]

Is the color variation how they came off the 3d printer? Or is it oxidation from heat?

it's the heat treatment