UM/S2H/Suppressors/Scopes and More!

[Roor]

Ok. To answer your question, I need to understand what you are actually asking.

What do you mean by “supersonic bullet crack coming from a dull suppressor”?

I guess the point I was making is that at some distance… whether it’s 200,300,400 yards etc the bullet will be louder than the suppressed shot from the animals point of view.

If that’s true, then does “tone” even matter at 350 yards.

 

[waspocrew]

Here’s a cool video of what bullets sound like flying past you. Not the exact comparison, but fun to hear nonetheless.

 

[Formidilosus]

I guess the point I was making is that at some distance… whether it’s 200,300,400 yards etc the bullet will be louder than the suppressed shot from the animals point of view.

Ok. When a bullet goes past you a couple feet away- where is the sound located?

If that’s true, then does “tone” even matter at 350 yards.

What do you believe “tone” is referring to in this context?

 

[Lowedog]

I'm curious on 3D printing vs machining. Is it that you can print a can in one operation? Eliminate welding? I imagine you have to have secondary machining ops for at least the threads. Or is it accurate enough to produce quality threads?

 

[HighUintas]

The range I go to occasionally has a trench for putting up targets at 100yd so they don't have to call cease fire. The sonic crack is not all that loud and I really don't think that it would be very loud at all in comparison at 500yd depending on velocity and caliber.

The loudness of the crack is determined by amount of air moved/jammed into that wave, ie determined by speed and caliber.

 

[Roor]

Ok. When a bullet goes past you a couple feet away- where is the sound located?




What do you believe “tone” is referring to in this context?

Tone = “womf sound according to this thread”

I just don’t believe at say 300 yards deer will stand still with suppressor x and run with suppressor y.

 

[Roor]

I'm curious on 3D printing vs machining. Is it that you can print a can in one operation? Eliminate welding? I imagine you have to have secondary machining ops for at least the threads. Or is it accurate enough to produce quality threads?

That and different baffle designs you can’t really do with traditional manufacturing processes.

 

[Formidilosus]

I just don’t believe at say 300 yards deer will stand still with suppressor x and run with suppressor y.

Did I state that?


But ok. So you won’t answer any questions- those same questions that will logically lead you to an answer.
Being that your belief is based on experience, go forth. All sounds at the same dB level sound exactly the same and suppressors all sound the same. Glass breaking causes the same reaction as the music in your EarPods or a loud fan.

 

[Roor]

Did I state that?


But ok. So you won’t answer any questions- those same questions that will logically lead you to an answer.
Being that your belief is based on experience, go forth. All sounds at the same dB level sound exactly the same and suppressors all sound the same. Glass breaking causes the same reaction as the music in your EarPods or a loud fan.

Maybe you can clear it up for me then

“Yes. You generally see the difference when shooting animals in herds. Some cans you consistently get a reaction from the herd in one or two shots. Then some cans they react way less to, and you get several more shots/animals. This translates to single animals as well, but obviously it takes a lot more encounters to tease it out.”

 

[BBob]

I'm curious on 3D printing vs machining. Is it that you can print a can in one operation? Eliminate welding? I imagine you have to have secondary machining ops for at least the threads. Or is it accurate enough to produce quality threads?

Looking at a DA Nomad Ti XC the threads are machined. I assume it's efficient to print the complete can with no welding just finish machining. The interior is pretty rough looking.

 

[HuntHarder]

How would that be hard evidence? I could make up it being any can I want. Or just cherry pick them.

If you actually believe that all noises at the exact same dB level “sound” the same, and elicit the same response from living things... ok. You live it every single day. That’s why the music in your ear buds is as shocking as glass breaking- because they sound “the same”.

If that is you stance, there is no amount of empirical evidence or discussion that will break through that.

To be clear.... I am not dismissing your claim. I honestly do not know. I want to know how you know? Like everything else you talk about, are you not able to prove this? Seems most things you write about, you have some kind of evidence to prove your claim. I am just wondering how you prove this "tone"? Not arguing, not saying you are wrong, simply looking to learn. I guess you could make up it being any can, but I would not think that is your style. Seems pretty simple to prove or disprove, animals react differently to this new can.

Where did I say I believe all noises at the exact same dB level "sound" the same?? No doubt in my mind noises sound different at different frequencies....... I am questioning if animals at X distance react different to small frequency differences. I think you are feeling attacked again and that is not my intention. You make a claim and I simply asked how you make this claim?

 

[Wiscgunner]

Tone = “womf sound according to this thread”

I just don’t believe at say 300 yards deer will stand still with suppressor x and run with suppressor y.

The further away you are from the sound the less startling it is, this seems pretty obvious to me, maybe most.

So if you are asking if there is a distance that a suppressor doesn't make a difference then yes there is.

Is there a distance that tone of a suppressor doesn't make a difference, yes there is.

For regular hunting at closer ranges I would wager that the sound of the suppressor would make a difference. Obviously less so at 100yrds than at 25 yrds and less at 350yrds than at 100yrds. Simply experiencing this with subsonic or archery brings the point home. I am sure there are countless archery people here that will tell you the tone of their pants on brush makes a huge difference from fabric to fabric.

In my experience animals are startled by a sonic crack but do not know where to run as the sound is extremely hard to locate just like thunder is very hard to pinpoint as they are literally the same thing. The point of origin moves and the sound wave spreads and bounces making it wash over you. The further away it is the more direction you can indicate but the closer it is the more it is just noise. Animals do not run without a direction or they could run into the predator.

So if an animal is washed over with one sound, any sound and a second sound it identifiable by location, the second sound is the identifiable danger...in my experience.

 

[Skydog]

I'd be curious how one accounts for the fact that deer often don't even react to unsuppressed shots, and if this has any bearing on the discussion at all?

 

[Formidilosus]

To be clear.... I am not dismissing your claim. I honestly do not know. I want to know how you know? Like everything else you talk about, are you not able to prove this? Seems most things you write about, you have some kind of evidence to prove your claim. I am just wondering how you prove this "tone"? Not arguing, not saying you are wrong, simply looking to learn. I guess you could make up it being any can, but I would not think that is your style. Seems pretty simple to prove or disprove, animals react differently to this new can.

Where did I say I believe all noises at the exact same dB level "sound" the same?? No doubt in my mind noises sound different at different frequencies....... I am questioning if animals at X distance react different to small frequency differences. I think you are feeling attacked again and that is not my intention. You make a claim and I simply asked how you make this claim?

Not attacked, just not interested in another pointless argument with people that aren’t actually trying to understand.


For your questions-

1). We don’t video most kills. We are starting to.

2). I relayed experience. In killing a bunch of animals, with a bunch of different people, using a bunch of different cans- it was noticed that with certain cans the animals seemed to react more or react sooner. That is, in-spite, of sometimes those cans having lower dB than other cans.
So much so, that when trying to shoot multiple animals out of a herd, we started making the people using those cans shoot last because the odds were higher that the animals would starting reacting to them more than other cans.
This wasn’t all that surprising to us, as lots of us had long ago noticed that the OP’s Inc 12th model cans produced less reaction from things being shot at, than other cans on the same rifles. Lots of people have noticed that. Every single person that has been around a bunch of cans being shot has noticed that they all sound different- some sound “better”. It just so happens, that those same cans tend to produce less reaction from living things than other cans do.
When you try to single out what is causing those cans to sound better, you find out that generally what is reported by people is that they sound less “sharp” and more of a hollow “thud”. Now take those same cans, have people stand 200 yards downrange slightly offset and behind safe cover, and shoot past them with different cans. They also tend to find out that certain cans sound less obnoxious in front of the muzzle than others. Those same ones tend to be the same cans that they preferred shooting, and that they saw caused slightly less animal reactions.

3). It isn’t a “small difference” in frequency. It’s noticeable. I have cans that the tactical world loves, that meter well at the shooters ear and at the standard forward position. Yet they sound like an unsuppressed rifle in broken terrains that echos.
Being shot side by side with cans that meter exactly the same, there isn’t a soul alive that doesn’t say those cans aren't louder than all the others. It is truly a loud POS for a can- but it meters well.
Another can- the DD Sti meters well- yet has a ringing crack to it. Over 20 shooters last year said it sounded worse and “louder” than any other can there- that were actually louder.
Same location, in the bottom of a valley and slightly offset from people shooting from canyon rim to canyon rim across and overhead- all with good cans by dB reduction measurement standards- there was a dramatic difference in their sound between them. Ryan was there for part of it, and some people we thought were shooting unsuppressed- they weren’t. But there was a very large difference in how quickly we noticed the shots, and our ability to pinpoint exactly which out cropping they came from. Other cans we thought were in the next valley over, and not in the one we were in. We could not pinpoint where they were, nor how close, nor did they cause any great concern. Very different. I remarked to those with me- “yeah, not all cans sound the same in front”.

4). Nowhere did I state that the difference between good cans- one being “hollow” sounding, and one being “cracky” sounding made a massive difference on animals. I said that there tends to be a difference in their reactions based on different sounds. That’s it.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'd be curious how one accounts for the fact that deer often don't even react to unsuppressed shots, and if this has any bearing on the discussion at all?

Often? What is often to you?

Certainly there are deer herds that aren’t shot at much that don’t react at times. However, in deer herds that are shot at frequently- it is rare to have a group of does not react to unsuppressed shots at mid ranges- 300-600 yards. In those same herds it is not rare at all to be able to kill multiple deer out of that same herd suppressed.

 

[HighUintas]

Not attacked, just not interested in another pointless argument with people that aren’t actually trying to understand.


For your questions-

1). We don’t video most kills. We are starting to.

2). I relayed experience. In killing a bunch of animals, with a bunch of different people, using a bunch of different cans- it was noticed that with certain cans the animals seemed to react more or react sooner. That is, in-spite, of sometimes those cans having lower dB than other cans.
So much so, that when trying to shoot multiple animals out of a herd, we started making the people using those cans shoot last because the odds were higher that the animals would starting reacting to them more than other cans.
This wasn’t all that surprising to us, as lots of us had long ago noticed that the OP’s Inc 12th model cans produced less reaction from things being shot at, than other cans on the same rifles. Lots of people have noticed that. Every single person that has been around a bunch of cans being shot has noticed that they all sound different- some sound “better”. It just so happens, that those same cans tend to produce less reaction from living things than other cans do.
When you try to single out what is causing those cans to sound better, you find out that generally what is reported by people is that they sound less “sharp” and more of a hollow “thud”. Now take those same cans, have people stand 200 yards downrange slightly offset and behind safe cover, and shoot past them with different cans. They also tend to find out that certain cans sound less obnoxious in front of the muzzle than others. Those same ones tend to be the same cans that they preferred shooting, and that they saw caused slightly less animal reactions.

3). It isn’t a “small difference” in frequency. It’s noticeable. I have cans that the tactical world loves, that meter well at the shooters ear and at the standard forward position. Yet they sound like an unsuppressed rifle in broken terrains that echos.
Being shot side by side with cans that meter exactly the same, there isn’t a soul alive that doesn’t say those cans aren't louder than all the others. It is truly a loud POS for a can- but it meters well.
Another can- the DD Sti meters well- yet has a ringing crack to it. Over 20 shooters last year said it sounded worse and “louder” than any other can there- that were actually louder.
Same location, in the bottom of a valley and slightly offset from people shooting from canyon rim to canyon rim across and overhead- all with good cans by dB reduction measurement standards- there was a dramatic difference in their sound between them. Ryan was there for part of it, and some people we thought were shooting unsuppressed- they weren’t. But there was a very large difference in how quickly we noticed the shots, and our ability to pinpoint exactly which out cropping they came from. Other cans we thought were in the next valley over, and not in the one we were in. We could not pinpoint where they were, nor how close, nor did they cause any great concern. Very different. I remarked to those with me- “yeah, not all cans sound the same in front”.

4). Nowhere did I state that the difference between good cans- one being “hollow” sounding, and one being “cracky” sounding made a massive difference on animals. I said that there tends to be a difference in their reactions based on different sounds. That’s it.

Thanks. That paints a pretty clear picture.

How does the scythe with the factory brake cap sound in that comparison? I have shot mine on my 243 without ear protection a few times and it always surprises me how tinny and ringing it is. I expected a different sound.

This might track with my one kill experience. Elk herd of about 7-8, 500yd line of sight, shot down into a canyon from a few hundred feet above, 22" 243 and scythe. 1 shot and they all bolted.

 

[Skydog]

Often? What is often to you?

Certainly there are deer herds that aren’t shot at much that don’t react at times. However, in deer herds that are shot at frequently- it is rare to have a group of does not react to unsuppressed shots at mid ranges- 300-600 yards. In those same herds it is not rare at all to be able to kill multiple deer out of that same herd suppressed.

I'm speaking only from my personal experience, but I have witnessed it multiple times when I have doubled up on deer...and I know folks that I hunt with who have had similar experiences, even at close range. One hunt in particular that stands out in my mind was when I was less than 20 yards from two does standing, one in front of the other just a few feet apart. I shot one (unsuppressed .270 Win.) and she dropped. The other doe just stood there while I chambered another round. So, she did not even react to the sound of me working the bolt. I shot her while she was still standing there. This was in an area that had a lot of hunting pressure.

Mine is definitely a small sample size compared to yours, but it has happened "often" enough that I'm not really surprised when it does happen or when I hear reports of similar experiences from other hunters that I know. I have no explanation for it. I would think that shooting a .270 that close to a deer would scare the hell out of it.

I have no doubt that suppressed shots spook deer less frequently than unsuppressed shots, but there seem to be some variables other than just decibels/tone that contribute to how deer react...otherwise they would run every time when hearing an unsuppressed shot.

 

[wyosam]

I’ve got some chaffing going on g on. Ya’ll got any drop tested chonies in the pipeline?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks. That paints a pretty clear picture.

How does the scythe with the factory brake cap sound in that comparison? I have shot mine on my 243 without ear protection a few times and it always surprises me how tinny and ringing it is. I expected a different sound.

This might track with my one kill experience. Elk herd of about 7-8, 500yd line of sight, shot down into a canyon from a few hundred feet above, 22" 243 and scythe. 1 shot and they all bolted.

I have not been impressed with the Scythe, and do not like the sound of it. It is one of the cans in all of this that we have compared that most people thought was pretty loud comparatively.

 

[Speaks]

I'm speaking only from my personal experience, but I have witnessed it multiple times when I have doubled up on deer...and I know folks that I hunt with who have had similar experiences, even at close range. One hunt in particular that stands out in my mind was when I was less than 20 yards from two does standing, one in front of the other just a few feet apart. I shot one (unsuppressed .270 Win.) and she dropped. The other doe just stood there while I chambered another round. So, she did not even react to the sound of me working the bolt. I shot her while she was still standing there. This was in an area that had a lot of hunting pressure.

Mine is definitely a small sample size compared to yours, but it has happened "often" enough that I'm not really surprised when it does happen or when I hear reports of similar experiences from other hunters that I know. I have no explanation for it. I would think that shooting a .270 that close to a deer would scare the hell out of it.

I have no doubt that suppressed shots spook deer less frequently than unsuppressed shots, but there seem to be some variables other than just decibels/tone that contribute to how deer react...otherwise they would run every time when hearing an unsuppressed shot.

I have found singles or doubles react less. Guessing that in a large groups if ANY deer reacts all do and the larger the group the more likely it is. Limited sample size for me though, all not supressed