Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

[Thegman]

Sounds like a bolt head or barrel (headspace) issue I'd think.

I'd tend to agree, especially if the extraction difficulty occurs without even firing. Brass/chamber/bolt or some combination out of spec.

Also, I'd suggest you remove the extractor and take out the O-ring and plunger. This makes it easier for the extractor to snap over the case rim upon chambering. These builds don't need the extraction strength a gasser needs. Mine are very easy to chamber and extract which happens often when hunting. They're as easy or easier than a normal bolt rifle.

The only time I've seen something like this was with the 30HRT, with either rechambering fired brass, or brass not sized short enough for the chamber (making brass from 6.8 SPC cases so the shoulder has to be pushed back and formed to headspace correctly).

One other point would be to make sure the lugs are greased, if they're not already. I coat mine pretty well. Not sure if it helps, but doesn't seem to hurt.

 

[Thegman]

I just got finished at the range.

Couple of things to note:

It takes a lot of effort to get it into battery. Not always, but sometimes.

It takes a lot of effort to get it out of battery. Nearly always.

If it doesn't go fully into battery, it's a BITCH to get out.

This particular Timney trigger is worse than any milspec I've ever used. It's supposed to be set at 3lb, but it feels much more like 8 or 9! I'm going to blame that & the scope for the fact that it shoots like crap. 3" was the best i averaged, but since I couldn't get a full 10 shots together in a string, it's hard to say.
I'm going to try a different bolt head. I've had issues with nickel boron bolts in the past.

The crappy groups could be trigger induced for sure, like you say. Lightweight rifles probably need light triggers to reach their potential. On my very first AR, I went through a pretty big learning curve figuring out how to shoot the damn thing better than 3 MOA. Someone more knowledgeable told me that's all I could get from a cheap AR and would need to spend north of a grand to get one that shot well.

Not being very good at giving up, I lightened the trigger, worked on handloads, and maybe most importantly experimented with bench techniques. Within a week or two I had a 55 TTSX load that shot sub-MOA as well as my bolt rifles. So much for needing a $1K AR; they truly are amazing rifles for what they are.

As far as bench technique, the biggest aha moment was simply changing my front bag. I use a fairly long bag (about 10") with my bolt rifles. On a whim I tried an old short bag I never use. My groups immediately shrunk about in half. I'm not sure why, but for me, the AR wanted something different than my bolt rifles.

Also, placing a soft towel folded on the front rest (and rear rest as well) seems to help with light rifles in general. I think they're more prone to bounce on a hard bag than are heavier rifles. Shooting off of a pack does a good job of mimicking the soft front rest. Haven't tried it yet, but the towel in the long bag may have worked as well. Once I figured out something that worked I haven't messed with it too much.

Keep experimenting with ideas and techniques. The rifle can do it, just have to figure out what it wants in order to do it. For me, shooting ARs well was kind of like re-learning to shoot. Not saying that you're doing this, but after I quit insisting on treating them the same as my bolt rifles, things started coming together.

 

[robtattoo]

I'd tend to agree, especially if the extraction difficulty occurs without even firing. Brass/chamber/bolt or some combination out of spec.

Also, I'd suggest you remove the extractor and take out the O-ring and plunger. This makes it easier for the extractor to snap over the case rim upon chambering. These builds don't need the extraction strength a gasser needs. Mine are very easy to chamber and extract which happens often when hunting. They're as easy or easier than a normal bolt rifle.

The only time I've seen something like this was with the 30HRT, with either rechambering fired brass, or brass not sized short enough for the chamber (making brass from 6.8 SPC cases so the shoulder has to be pushed back and formed to headspace correctly).

One other point would be to make sure the lugs are greased, if they're not already. I coat mine pretty well. Not sure if it helps, but doesn't seem to hurt.

So, leave the extractor & just the spring, if I'm understanding correctly?

There is every chance that the brass is also a little long. I don't recall what I originally built these loads for, but now I think about it, they may have just been neck sized.
I'll run a few through a body die & see if that helps too.

 

[Thegman]

So, leave the extractor & just the spring, if I'm understanding correctly?

There is every chance that the brass is also a little long. I don't recall what I originally built these loads for, but now I think about it, they may have just been neck sized.
I'll run a few through a body die & see if that helps too.

Yes, exactly, just the spring.

Yeah, FL size some brass and run it through, and maybe pull a bullet from one of the difficult cartridges and check how that brass chambers before and after sizing. Should run as easy in and out as any other AR. The cartridge on the top of my mag has been in and out of the chamber a bunch of times.

One other thing on that point: AR extensions and feed ramps are a lot harder on bullets than bolt rifles are. I hand chamber cartridges that might be loaded multiple times and when extracting, I hold the cartridge straight in the chamber until it clears the extension. I don't know if bullets that are all scratched to hell matter, but I figure it's easy enough to avoid.

Let us know, I'm curious how it works out.

 

[robtattoo]

Yes, exactly, just the spring.

Yeah, FL size some brass and run it through, and maybe pull a bullet from one of the difficult cartridges and check how that brass chambers before and after sizing. Should run as easy in and out as any other AR. The cartridge on the top of my mag has been in and out of the chamber a bunch of times.

One other thing on that point: AR extensions and feed ramps are a lot harder on bullets that bolt rifles are. I hand chamber cartridges that might be loaded multiple times and when extracting, I hold the cartridge straight in the chamber until it clears the extension. I don't know if bullets that are all scratched to hell matter, but I figure it's easy enough to avoid.

Let us know, I'm curious how it works out.

I did as suggested with the extractor on a different bolt head. Night & day difference.
I manually ran 10 random loaded cartridges through with zero hiccups. I also tried some empty brass that are waiting on loads, but from the same batch, by just dropping them into the breech & closing the bolt. No trouble at all. Pulled the trigger on a few empties (no primer or anything) & it takes a little 'flick' to get things going, but not really any harder than a bolt gun.
I also tried intentionally to not fully load a round. Getting it just to the point they were sticking so hard before & they were also easy to extract.
I'm guessing maybe a combo of mismatched bolt & stiff extractors was causing the issue. Won't know for definite until i can shoot it again, but I'm hopeful.
Now I just need a non-POS trigger.

 

[Thegman]

I did as suggested with the extractor on a different bolt head. Night & day difference.
I manually ran 10 random loaded cartridges through with zero hiccups. I also tried some empty brass that are waiting on loads, but from the same batch, by just dropping them into the breech & closing the bolt. No trouble at all. Pulled the trigger on a few empties (no primer or anything) & it takes a little 'flick' to get things going, but not really any harder than a bolt gun.
I also tried intentionally to not fully load a round. Getting it just to the point they were sticking so hard before & they were also easy to extract.
I'm guessing maybe a combo of mismatched bolt & stiff extractors was causing the issue. Won't know for definite until i can shoot it again, but I'm hopeful.
Now I just need a non-POS trigger.

And to add, that slight resistance to start extraction is actually helpful in keeping the bolt in battery. Sounds like you've got it figured out, good deal. Glad it's running right.

 

[robtattoo]

And to add, that slight resistance to start extraction is actually helpful in keeping the bolt in battery. Sounds like you've got it figured out, good deal. Glad it's running right.

Thanks a lot for the help! I never would've considered the extractor.

 

[SLG]

Thanks for the detailed "first impressions". I'll be interested to hear more about it after you've run it for awhile.

These rifles can already be so ridiculously lightweight that the extra weight of a lightweight mount and lightweight scope make the tradeoff equation a little different. Like StupidLightweight mentioned, there may be lower practical limit for longer range shootability, but I haven't seem to hit that for myself, that I can tell yet, anyway. Knowing myself, I'll probably just have to try one out eventually...unless you find it to be lacking some way functionally.

I've had a 3x version for a few years now. Works well and does what I ask of it. It has been on a 300BLK Rattler, as well as a few 5.56 pistols and carbines. No drama.

 

[JBradley500]

How far are you guys typically shooting at animals with these guns to want magnified optics? I am only shooting 115 yards max, but typically 15-50 yards.

 

[Thegman]

How far are you guys typically shooting at animals with these guns to want magnified optics? I am only shooting 115 yards max, but typically 15-50 yards.

Depends on the game. Moose are within 100 or so yards here. Deer and black bear up to 300 or so, caribou would be about the same, but the local season has been closed for a couple of years.

My first animal with the Red Ryder was that black bear at 350. One deer on Kodiak at 293, one at 300 and change another at 165. I guess the best answer for me is that I've been hunting the same animals and taking the same shots as I would with my 308 Montana and 30-06 Tikka. Not sure yet about the HAM’R at those ranges as the furthest shot I've had with that has been 150, but I think it would be fine at 300-350 as well.

(Just thinking about these rifles. That first ultralight I built with the Taccom stock and the Wilson 300 HAM’R Ranger 1:13 barrel, the one with the grizzly and other stuff in the beginning of this thread, is a really goofy looking sumbitch but shoots ridiculously well. I don't think it's shot any loads that weren't MOA or less. You'd probably be surprised at the ranges they're capable of shooting)

 

[Taudisio]

How far are you guys typically shooting at animals with these guns to want magnified optics? I am only shooting 115 yards max, but typically 15-50 yards.

I did a quick calculation with a ballistic calculator. I feel comfortable with the numbers for the 6x45 for game out to 400 yards. I do not want the optic to be my limiting factor when it comes down to it. Obviously the barrel has to prove itself to me before I put the crosshairs on any sort of game. Like I had said earlier, 200-250 with the red dot MAX for my eyes.

 

[StupidLightweight]

Between work and two young kids, I've been slammed for time, but I just caught up on the recent build updates, and you guys are kicking ass! Great work all around. I need to buy some carbon fiber now for a custom stock.

 

[Ringbill27]

So I’m pretty late to the game with this thread and have some questions.

What cartridge are you all chambering these rifle in? I would intend to use this on deer.

Since there is no gas system the bolt needs to be operated by the shooter. You still need the buffer spring correct?

Thanks

 

[StupidLightweight]

The most common cartridge used is .223/5.56. For deer, that's all you need.

You do not need buffer or buffer spring. The bolt stays locked in from friction or, in the case of the Solo300 upper, an added ball detent.

 

[Houseminer]

I had a Browning A-Bolt Mountain Ti, a beautiful rifle, it weighed 5lbs 5oz. and was deadly accurate with remarkable groups at 500 yards. Topped it with a Huskemaw Blue Diamond 5-20x50.

 

[Ringbill27]

5.56 would work. Not arguing that it isn’t an effective deer cartridge but it’s not my first choice.

Interesting so it’s pretty much just a straight pull bolt action. I’m going to have to go back to page one and start reading.

 

[robtattoo]

5.56 would work. Not arguing that it isn’t an effective deer cartridge but it’s not my first choice.

Interesting so it’s pretty much just a straight pull bolt action. I’m going to have to go back to page one and start reading.

Yessir, that's exactly it!
With the number of AR barrels in a 1:7 or 1:8, shooting heavier 73/75 or 77gr bullets makes them a no brainer for deer size game.
.300blk would also be a great option, although uberlight barrels aren't available. You could still get easily under 4lb for the bare gun.

 

[StupidLightweight]

5.56 would work. Not arguing that it isn’t an effective deer cartridge but it’s not my first choice.

No, the 5.56 does work, but if you want to toss a bigger bullet, go right ahead. The beauty of the AR is you can build a straight-pull in 6x45, 6mm ARC, .25-45 Sharps, 6.5 Grendel, .300 BLK, .300 HAM'R, .350 Legend, .400 Legend, .450 Bushmaster, or .50 Beowulf, not to mention dozens of less popular options.

 

[Ringbill27]

Yessir, that's exactly it!
With the number of AR barrels in a 1:7 or 1:8, shooting heavier 73/75 or 77gr bullets makes them a no brainer for deer size game.
.300blk would also be a great option, although uberlight barrels aren't available. You could still get easily under 4lb for the bare gun.

I currently hunt deer with a ruger in 7.62x39 and would probably with the route I’d go as I really comfortable with the cartridge.

I also have a 350legend with a light barrel built and I can’t get the gas system to cycle reliably. Maybe this is the rifle to become a bolt action.

 

[FullyTorqued]

5.56 would work. Not arguing that it isn’t an effective deer cartridge but it’s not my first choice.

Interesting so it’s pretty much just a straight pull bolt action. I’m going to have to go back to page one and start reading.

Refer to this thread for examples of 223/5.56 effectiveness on larger game. The key is the correct bullet. 77gr TMK is the current favorite.

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

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