Training for The Uphill Athlete Scott Johnston New Hunting Podcast

[mtwarden]

Weighted hikes around week 5, but the ME specific work in week 20.

Edit, didn't realize I hit send. Week 5 starts loaded hikes, and ME work begins week 20 and ends week 27.

Thanks guys! That’s pretty close to what I’ve been doing (10 weeks out)

 

[3325]

great podcast.. I am more of a downhill athlete.

Straight down the fall line, arms flailing?

 

[Truck24hr]

I've got another question guys, this one concerning a conversational pace. I've been running on the treadmill at the gym, and I wasn't going to try it there.

It was asked the other day if my pace was conversational when I did the drift test, so I wanted to try that when I got back on the roads.

So today I ran harder than I usually do. Legs felt good, temp was around 20*. I just felt good overall.

I just repeated the sentence "My heart rate is ***, and I'm still conversational" with whatever heart rate I was running.

This was pretty easy up to about 145 or 146, but I'd have to take two good breaths before I could repeat the sentence.

Would that be considered past a conversational pace?

I'm just trying to dial my training in. Maybe I'm looking into it too much.

 

[Marbles]

I've got another question guys, this one concerning a conversational pace. I've been running on the treadmill at the gym, and I wasn't going to try it there.

It was asked the other day if my pace was conversational when I did the drift test, so I wanted to try that when I got back on the roads.

So today I ran harder than I usually do. Legs felt good, temp was around 20*. I just felt good overall.

I just repeated the sentence "My heart rate is ***, and I'm still conversational" with whatever heart rate I was running.

This was pretty easy up to about 145 or 146, but I'd have to take two good breaths before I could repeat the sentence.

Would that be considered past a conversational pace?

I'm just trying to dial my training in. Maybe I'm looking into it too much.

Yes, it would be past a conversational pace. Unless you normally have to take two deep breaths between short sentences.

 

[Truck24hr]

Yes, it would be past a conversational pace. Unless you normally have to take two deep breaths between short sentences.

Thanks. That gives me a good reference point.

 

[mtnbound]

I've got another question guys, this one concerning a conversational pace. I've been running on the treadmill at the gym, and I wasn't going to try it there.

It was asked the other day if my pace was conversational when I did the drift test, so I wanted to try that when I got back on the roads.

So today I ran harder than I usually do. Legs felt good, temp was around 20*. I just felt good overall.

I just repeated the sentence "My heart rate is ***, and I'm still conversational" with whatever heart rate I was running.

This was pretty easy up to about 145 or 146, but I'd have to take two good breaths before I could repeat the sentence.

Would that be considered past a conversational pace?

I'm just trying to dial my training in. Maybe I'm looking into it too much.

Based on the training load, other stresses and your body’s recovery rate there will be some variance with your HR range, but often a HR between 139-141 will be the ballpark of the upper limit of Z2.

 

[Marbles]

Based on the training load, other stresses and your body’s recovery rate there will be some variance with your HR range, but often a HR between 139-141 will be the ballpark of the upper limit of Z2.

My caveat (and you did say often, so perhaps just adding emphasis) is there can be large individual variation. Which is why the drift test is best.

To use myself as an example, my tested anaerobic (lactate) threshold is higher than the formula says my max HR should be, and I've seen my HR past 200 bpm. That is not good or bad, it just is what it is. But, if I estimated my zones based on the general population, I would spend all my time in the bottom os Z1 or below.

 

[Poser]

I've been really trying to stay disciplined on my midweek conditioning this winter for backcountry skiing. I've been doing 2 laps on a 400 ft/ .7 miles North facing hill behind my house (my usual summer/Fall training hill is closed for wintering grounds) 2x a week by headlamp early in the morning before work. On the weekends, I hit up the ski resort one morning and then go skinning afterwards (this has proven to require a high degree of discipline) and then backcountry touring most of the day on the other weekend day.

Dividing winter time up between getting enough time at the ski resort, skinning, strength training is tricky and if I don't get training hikes in early in the morning, the ground tends to thaw and it gets annoying muddy. I used to struggle with this more until I finally resigned myself to getting up at 4 AM every day -just makes everything easier and more consistent to get in.

 

[mtnbound]

My caveat (and you did say often, so perhaps just adding emphasis) is there can be large individual variation. Which is why the drift test is best.

To use myself as an example, my tested anaerobic (lactate) threshold is higher than the formula says my max HR should be, and I've seen my HR past 200 bpm. That is not good or bad, it just is what it is. But, if I estimated my zones based on the general population, I would spend all my time in the bottom os Z1 or below.

Totally agree with you and feel doing tests and monitoring your HR is crucial to find one’s own range for maximum benefit.

 

[pattimusprime22]

My caveat (and you did say often, so perhaps just adding emphasis) is there can be large individual variation. Which is why the drift test is best.

To add even more emphasis on how much individual variation there is:


Table above comes from John Davis's blog: https://runningwritings.com/2025/02/lt1-lt2-heart-rate-individual-variation.html

 

[Ironman8]

I have a similar background as you and then found training for the new alpinism in 2017.
Incorporating zone 2 was massively beneficial and I felt like the thing that had been missing from my training.
I also believe the tactical games are more zone 2 than people realize because you will need to control your breathing and shooting. You just also need to be strong.
Scott has a podcast with a guy who won the best ranger competition, that might be helpful for you to check out.

Good feedback and good to hear it from someone with a similar background.

I also agree with you about TTG being more endurance based than it might appear on the surface. I do think you end up past Z2 quite a bit though, but I’m guessing that building a bigger aerobic base will end up helping pacing, heart rate, and recovery.

I’ll look for that podcast

 

[Ironman8]

Couple of questions:

When doing the HR drift test, how much drift is acceptable?

The way that this Z2 training is talked about, it’s almost as if you’d think there is 0 benefit if you drift 1 heart beat over the line into Z3. I have to believe that you’re still getting SOME benefit, albeit on a sliding scale, even when flirting with or going over that line just a bit, no?

 

[mtwarden]

Just my .02—Try to stay in Z2 as best you can, if you drift into Z3 I don’t think it’s any biggie at all.

I frequently bounce out of Z2 into 3 when ascending steep ascents (especially with a weighted pack) I’ll slow my pace a bit, but I’m often spending a fair bit of time in Z3.

In my experience get as much Z2 in as you can to build your base, but don’t sweat it if you bounce out of it on occasion.

 

[Truck24hr]

When doing the HR drift test, how much drift is acceptable?

I think Steve House and Scott Johnston say if within 3.5-5%, the HR you leveled out at after warm up is your aerobic threshold.

They both have detailed descriptions of the test on their websites.

 

[mtnbound]

Couple of questions:

When doing the HR drift test, how much drift is acceptable?

The way that this Z2 training is talked about, it’s almost as if you’d think there is 0 benefit if you drift 1 heart beat over the line into Z3. I have to believe that you’re still getting SOME benefit, albeit on a sliding scale, even when flirting with or going over that line just a bit, no?

 

[Truck24hr]

Sorry to keep beating this horse to death, just trying to better understand this conversational pace.

Few more runs in just seeing where a "conversational pace" is for myself.

Comparing my drift test and "conversational pace", I find that a truly "conversational pace" for me ends at the bottom end of my zone 2.

Above that bottom couple beats of Z2, it's pretty much the same from there up into the upper 140's.

How do my findings compare with other folks? Do you guys find all of Z2 conversational? Lastly, should I stay in those bottom few beats of Z2, or is work above a conversational pace but below the top end of Z2 ok?

 

[P Carter]

Sorry to keep beating this horse to death, just trying to better understand this conventional pace.

Few more runs in just seeing where a "conversational pace" is for myself.

Comparing my drift test and "conversational pace", I find that a truly "conversational pace" for me ends at the bottom end of my zone 2.

Above that bottom couple beats of Z2, it's pretty much the same from there up into the upper 140's.

How do my findings compare with other folks? Do you guys find all of Z2 conversational? Lastly, should I stay in those bottom few beats of Z2, or is work above a conversational pace but below the top end of Z2 ok?

These are just different proxies for a complex physiological phenomena. The question (imho) seeks a degree of precision that does not exist, and that is not necessary to attain the desired adaptations.

That said, I have the same thing: my upper calculated z2 isn’t conversational. But both the heart rate and what feels conversational on a given day fluctuates within a 5-10ish bpms based on outside stressors, time of day, temperature, what I ate, etc. For example, on a Saturday morning I can crank out 7:50 miles below the bottom of zone 2 (based on heart rate alone), but the pace is above conversational and is fatiguing. On a Tuesday night I’ll be at 8:20 miles and at the upper end of zone 2 (by heart rate alone), which is comfortably conversational and not fatiguing at all. I think this sort of variability is completely normal. We’re complex systems.

At the end of the day, so long as you’re in the range of zone 2 by heart rate, correlated by perceived effort, and consistently putting in the work, week after week, month after month, the difference between 5 beats per minute, conversational (perceived effort) versus pure heart rate, and those sorts of things is irrelevant. Pick one and go for it, emphasizing what will foster consistency. (For example, if it feels hard and unpleasant and you had a full working day, slow down, go by perceived effort, and enjoy the outdoors. But if you’re feeling motivated and want to crank out some miles, go by heartbeat even if it’s a bit above conversational pace.)

Again, all just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

 

[pattimusprime22]

These are just different proxies for a complex physiological phenomena. The question (imho) seeks a degree of precision that does not exist, and that is not necessary to attain the desired adaptations.

Perfectly put. I've spent a lot of time trying to "accurately" find my aerobic threshold (AeT/LT1), but at the end of the day they can be a moving target based on many factors (fatigue, hydration, temperature, etc..).

Your exercise won't be ineffective at building your base if you are slightly over or under, but if you really want to build training volume it never hurts to be under, you didn't have to train right at the threshold.

 

[Ironman8]

I just ran this morning and my findings almost exactly mirror yours. I’m only a couple weeks into training Z2 after a lifetime anaerobic work, so I chalk this up to being aerobically deficient and my body still trying to adapt to the new stimulus.

Similar to what P Carter said, my main kpi that I’m shooting for is perceived effort and how beat up I feel after this huge increase in volume that I’m adding. In other words, if I finish the workout and feel like I could do it again later in the day (or get a lift in), then that’s more important to me than being “off” by a few bpm of whatever estimated zone 2 threshold that I set.