Tikka Nitriding

[Formidilosus]

Well Dr. Form, please provide your material science analysis, bro.

I’m not the one that believes chipped paint is nitride.

Are you saying that UM ceracoated this bolt instead of sending off for nitride?

How would I know, or care what UM did or didn’t do?

But you believing nitride “wears” like that just says that you have no idea what nitride does.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well this was pre Red Carpet QC card... Perhaps I was bamboozled by the podcaster

Did you order the bolt nitrided?

 

[swavescatter]

Did you order the bolt nitrided?

Yes. Action, bolt and barrel all nitrided. But they totally screwed up the chambering on the barrel so that got shipped back. Complete shitshow of a build but I've moved on. I completely agree with you that this industry sucks, is full of bro science, shoddy craftsmanship, outright incompetence and marketeering BS.

Also, many researchers have performed controlled experiments to measure the material properties of nitrided steel, including wear properties. This is published in peer reviewed journals. You are single handedly dismissing long established material science fundamentals because....?

You might caveat your position by stating that nitrided steel wears much less than untreated steel, or not perceivably in a firearm application. But it does wear, and you can measure it, as have many engineers and scientists. I'm not a material scientist, which is why I did 10 seconds of research to satisfy my doubts about miracle nitride properties.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Here's a picture of my UM nitrided bolt. Lots of wear for something that supposedly doesn't wear. Wiped it for the pic - always run the red tacky bolt lube on the lugs...

View attachment 947551

How many rounds on the bolt since "Nitrite"

I have had 20+ actions with Nitrite. That bolt is not Nitried, or something is up with the lockup.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes. Action, bolt and barrel all nitrided. But they totally screwed up the chambering on the barrel so that got shipped back. Complete shitshow of a build but I've moved on. I completely agree with you that this industry sucks, is full of bro science, shoddy craftsmanship, outright incompetence and marketeering BS.

Also, many researchers have performed controlled experiments to measure the material properties of nitrided steel, including wear properties. This is published in peer reviewed journals. You are single handedly dismissing long established material science fundamentals because....?

You might caveat your position by stating that nitrided steel wears much less than untreated steel, or not perceivably in a firearm application. But it does wear, and you can measure it, as have many engineers and scientists. I'm not a material scientist, which is why I did 10 seconds of research to satisfy my doubts about miracle nitride properties.

I posted in a thread about a bolt action rifle with nitride. You aren’t “wearing” nitride off a bolt in a bolt action in normal use. Maybe stop, and realize that your argument is based on a bolt that looks like all the world is paint- not nitride. Who did it or what happened means absolutely nothing to me.

Your “ten seconds” of “research” would have been better spent ordering ammo to actually shoot and see if you can “wear” nitride off a bolt action rifle.

 

[NSI]

You have seen issues with Tikka bolt lugs after sending to H&M black nitride?

Yes.

 

[swavescatter]

How many rounds on the bolt since "Nitrite"

I have had 20+ actions with Nitrite. That bolt is not Nitried, or something is up with the lockup.

300?

I am not at all surprised that this was yet another screw up by UM and I didn't actually get the nitride I ordered. They refunded the bulk of the build, but I was still out hundreds in shipping, ammo and a ton of time monkeying with this crap. Apparently there are still a few "unknowns" coming to light

Talking to several gunsmiths, none would attempt to fix the chamber of the "nitrided" Ace barrel unless I paid for a new reamer since it would cause undo wear. So yes, nitrided steel can be machined (because it's not magic) but is very hard on cutting tools.

 

[MagnumHntr]

Yes.

Can you explain what you have seen happen after nitrided?

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

This is what mine looks like.

 

[Stocky]

We do nitrided tooling for making rollformed steel. They runs literal miles of steel everyday and yes the black oxide wears off but the nitrode layer (the hard bit) stays. We service 10-15 year old machines that have run tens of thousands of miles of steel that look exceptionally polished but the have held profile so likely dimensionally its still within a thou or so dimensionally.

Nitriding isn't black thats an oxide applied at the same time for appearance and corrosion resistance.

 

[Nine Banger]

We sent a batch out today. I'll be back later for before and after.

 

[ACHILLES]

I agree with this for blue actions. I have seen brittleness introduced into lugs that resulted in failure, so I no longer nitride stainless actions, stainless bolts, or other stainless parts. Because of my belief in the superiority of nitride, all I buy are blued tikkas for our shop. I DLC coat the bolts instead. Incidentally this is the process that Falkor uses, and it does have a material impact on smoothness/binding as a side effect.

-J

It seems like most custom actions that are nitrided are stainless. Do you happen to know where the difference is? Are they nitriding first then heat treating after or something to avoid the issues you’ve described?

 

[NSI]

Can you explain what you have seen happen after nitrided?

2 instances of Tikka bolt lugs chipping.

-J

 

[NSI]

It seems like most custom actions that are nitrided are stainless. Do you happen to know where the difference is? Are they nitriding first then heat treating after or something to avoid the issues you’ve described?

I haven’t the foggiest. Possibly different species of stainless.

-J

 

[RockAndSage]

I DLC coat the bolts instead. Incidentally this is the process that Falkor uses, and it does have a material impact on smoothness/binding as a side effect.

Part of what you're experiencing here are the legit synergies you get by mating two interacting surfaces with different coatings/surface treatments on the moving parts. It's good practice, as it minimizes friction better than either of them would if both surfaces had the same coating.

DLC mated with some of the nitrides is particularly wear-resistant and slick, especially in dry/unlubricated applications. Hard-chrome paired with nickel-boron can be extremely slick too, especially combined with wet lubes, though the NiB doesn't have as good of wear resistance as the other coatings, but it's far better than traditional treatments like bluing. But NiB's slick as hell, and good in some semi-auto/full-auto applications. Especially combined with DLC on the other surface. Overall though, for bolt guns, it would be hard to beat a DLC bolt in a nitrided gun for dry wear resistance and minimal binding.

 

[ACHILLES]

I haven’t the foggiest. Possibly different species of stainless.

-J

Called and spoke with Ian Kelbly on the subject. He said their steel is heat treated before any machining is done. Also something I wasn’t thinking about at the time that he brought up was that most custom stainless nitrided actions have chrome moly bolts. The tikkas have stainless actions and bolts. Best I could find was that tikkas are 416 stainless, what type of 416 I don’t know. I believe the Kelblys use 416RS stainless. Ian said a possibility with the stainless nitrided tikka bolts chipping could be from them nitrided with the wrong process. He said h&m can nitride for any type of stainless but they have to know the exact type of stainless to nitride it correctly regarding time and specific temperature. Although I would like to think h&m has figured this out by now.

 

[Nine Banger]

Although I would like to think h&m has figured this out by now.

My H&M treated tikka bolt looks great at 300 rounds fired.

We sent them 4 more yesterday.

 

[MagnumHntr]

Called and spoke with Ian Kelbly on the subject. He said their steel is heat treated before any machining is done. Also something I wasn’t thinking about at the time that he brought up was that most custom stainless nitrided actions have chrome moly bolts. The tikkas have stainless actions and bolts. Best I could find was that tikkas are 416 stainless, what type of 416 I don’t know. I believe the Kelblys use 416RS stainless. Ian said a possibility with the stainless nitrided tikka bolts chipping could be from them nitrided with the wrong process. He said h&m can nitride for any type of stainless but they have to know the exact type of stainless to nitride it correctly regarding time and specific temperature. Although I would like to think h&m has figured this out by now.

What about the blued actions, I dont believe they are 416.

Anyone else seen any issues with a nitrided Tikka bolt?

 

[ACHILLES]

I’ve never seen any issues reported on the blued/chrome moly tikka actions. We were just talking about the stainless since those were the actions NSI had issues with.

 

[MagnumHntr]

I’ve never seen any issues reported on the blued/chrome moly tikka actions. We were just talking about the stainless since those were the actions NSI had issues with.

I believe all tikka bolt bodies are the same no matter blued or stainless action?