Thought I had settled on a good "first rifle + glass" combo, less sure now

[cuttingedge]

The issue is that getting multiple family members shooting proficiently requires significant ammo down range. At $1.50/round, that money adds up.

223 ammo can be had for one-third the price. It’s why so many of use it for a trainer.

For perspective, by 750 rounds, the cost difference of ammo could buy new stainless Tikka.

He should buy both. Problem solved

 

[Brontosaurus]

I went the two rifle route and it's very enjoyable. 223 to practice and 6.5 c to shoot elk here in Wyo. If 223 weren't illegal for elk I would've gone just with the 223.

 

[rclouse79]

If I were starting over I would get and Tikka and SWFA and call it good.

 

[AlpineAssassin907]

If I were starting over I would get and Tikka and SWFA and call it good.

Couldn’t have said it better myself, tried and true combo to drive tacks. Tikka, whatever caliber you prefer & SWFA 6x or 3-9 for the win.

I Have a pile of them, no complaints, I also run a Kimber Montana in .308 & hunter in .270 with a SWFA 6x…..

 

[black dawg]

Of course, all of the game departments that require greater than .24 caliber for big game could be wrong.

In spite of people killing all kinds of animals with a .223 and even target bullets, they aren't made for big game. Sure, you can kill big game with any caliber and even a .22 LR or knife if you get close enough.

But, do you really want your child to start out hunting with the smallest possible weapon that requires the closest possible range and best possible shot? I think that's an unnecessary handicap even if some people here think it's "cool" and "trendy".

Obvious to some of.us and apparently not to others, looking for an optimum caliber instead of the minimum possible will probably yield better results. YMMV.

So, what do you suggest for small kids that want to shoot and hunt?

I have approached this the old fashioned way, handed down 270, then tried 243 with a couple others, and shooting minimal rounds, because they were getting beat up and flinching. With the 223, they ask to shoot more, and shoot good enough that i knew when groups of a particular rifle opened up to 1.5 moa, that something was up with the rifle and not them.

To be honest I was concerned that 223 was on the small side, pictures on this site, Convinced me too try it myself. I think we have killed 7 deer now with these 223s all but one died within 30yds, except for 1 that had a poor hit, by a much more experienced shooter......wounds have looked to me very similar to 150 accubond from an 06, only differing with the 06 accubond having a better exit......

 

[Rich M]

Have to ask the question - since when did a .22 stop being the best first gun to learn with? It is cheap, easy. You don't have to start with a centerfire rifle.

 

[black dawg]

I think 22lr to first learn with, is assumed. I think there is benefit even for adults to shooting 22lr. We did a lot of positional shooting this summer with 22lr and it shows with my kids, and with myself.

When it comes to hunting though, they need to be able to shoot the rifle they will hunt with enough to be comfortable with it.

 

[jimh406]

So, what do you suggest for small kids that want to shoot and hunt?

First, if it's not clear, I believe everyone gets to make their own choices. You can take or leave my thoughts.

There are lots of possibilities that have little to do with the shooter being small or not. 1. Practice with a light caliber or 22 LR and dry firing and minimize the time with the heavier power (whatever that is), so the person doesn't develop a flinch or correct the flinch. 2. Use recoil mitigation including having a stock that fits, brake or suppressor, and good recoil pad. 3. Shoot the hunting rifle enough to ensure it's zeroed but don't over do it.

In my own case, my 300 WBY with no brake/suppressor and light scope kicks quite a lot. I could spend all of my time shooting with it to be "more" familiar with it before I take it hunting. But, the controls are very similar to other guns, the basics of shooting are exactly the same. Obviously, I have to shoot it enough to ensure it is zeroed, but there is no practical advantage of only shooting the 300 WBY when I have other guns. Would I develop a flinch if I only shot it? I'm not sure, but I have no reason to do that.

But, maybe someone doesn't have other guns if that is the case, it gets more complicated. In that case, I suggest range time with only a few shots or one shot per range session. For hunting, I believe it is important to get the first cold barrel shot right in any case. Long range sessions with heavy kicking guns isn't a lot of fun for hardly anyone and doesn't simulate most people's hunting in any case.

 

[atmat]

brake or suppressor

The issue is that brakes will make most kids and new shooters flinch. Though they reduce recoil, they massively increase noise and concussive blast. Suppressors rock.

…or one shot per range session.

Building skill and precision can’t be done by shooting 1 shot per range trip, though. That’s why most here are recommending a lower caliber that can be shot in high volume.

 

[The Guide]

Have to ask the question - since when did a .22 stop being the best first gun to learn with? It is cheap, easy. You don't have to start with a centerfire rifle.

If you read the whole thread, the OP talks about his wife and daughter loving to shoot his 22LR. This is above and beyond that.

Jay

 

[Rich M]

If you read the whole thread, the OP talks about his wife and daughter loving to shoot his 22LR. This is above and beyond that.

Jay

Thanks, Jay - I missed that part in skimming the thread.

I did see someone said something like 16# of recoil being a breaking point - I think it is 10#. 10# is 30-30, 243, 350 Legend-class recoil. I was hunting with a 3006 at age of 8 and still have a horrible flinch to prove it. Like the 243 & 350 Legend.

I have a 357 mag (Ruger 77/357) rifle and it is excellent, be a good inside 100 yd gun for anyone. Like 5# recoil and much quieter too. Not a real gun, but fun. Contemplating putting a can on it...

 

[black dawg]

First, if it's not clear, I believe everyone gets to make their own choices. You can take or leave my thoughts.

There are lots of possibilities that have little to do with the shooter being small or not. 1. Practice with a light caliber or 22 LR and dry firing and minimize the time with the heavier power (whatever that is), so the person doesn't develop a flinch or correct the flinch. 2. Use recoil mitigation including having a stock that fits, brake or suppressor, and good recoil pad. 3. Shoot the hunting rifle enough to ensure it's zeroed but don't over do it.

In my own case, my 300 WBY with no brake/suppressor and light scope kicks quite a lot. I could spend all of my time shooting with it to be "more" familiar with it before I take it hunting. But, the controls are very similar to other guns, the basics of shooting are exactly the same. Obviously, I have to shoot it enough to ensure it is zeroed, but there is no practical advantage of only shooting the 300 WBY when I have other guns. Would I develop a flinch if I only shot it? I'm not sure, but I have no reason to do that.

But, maybe someone doesn't have other guns if that is the case, it gets more complicated. In that case, I suggest range time with only a few shots or one shot per range session. For hunting, I believe it is important to get the first cold barrel shot right in any case. Long range sessions with heavy kicking guns isn't a lot of fun for hardly anyone and doesn't simulate most people's hunting in any case.

First, if it's not clear, I believe everyone gets to make their own choices. You can take or leave my thoughts.

There are lots of possibilities that have little to do with the shooter being small or not. 1. Practice with a light caliber or 22 LR and dry firing and minimize the time with the heavier power (whatever that is), so the person doesn't develop a flinch or correct the flinch. 2. Use recoil mitigation including having a stock that fits, brake or suppressor, and good recoil pad. 3. Shoot the hunting rifle enough to ensure it's zeroed but don't over do it.

In my own case, my 300 WBY with no brake/suppressor and light scope kicks quite a lot. I could spend all of my time shooting with it to be "more" familiar with it before I take it hunting. But, the controls are very similar to other guns, the basics of shooting are exactly the same. Obviously, I have to shoot it enough to ensure it is zeroed, but there is no practical advantage of only shooting the 300 WBY when I have other guns. Would I develop a flinch if I only shot it? I'm not sure, but I have no reason to do that.

But, maybe someone doesn't have other guns if that is the case, it gets more complicated. In that case, I suggest range time with only a few shots or one shot per range session. For hunting, I believe it is important to get the first cold barrel shot right in any case. Long range sessions with heavy kicking guns isn't a lot of fun for hardly anyone and doesn't simulate most people's hunting in any case.

To be clear, I am not trying to be argumenative, and agree that we all have to make our own choices.

The thing is though, I don't think a lot of people understand the scale of recoil and its effects on peoples size. I know I sure didn't, but am learning. My first small daughter shot a light easy to handle 243, and only shot it enough to make sure it was zerod for her. Shooting lots of 22lr in between. This is a rifle that to me had no recoil, but watching her shoot it was every dramatic. She developed a serious flinch, that I didn't even notice until she missed a couple animals. She has grown a lot, and done lots of shooting since then, but when given the chance to shoot that rifle the other day made excuses to not shoot it.....

I agree that shooting fundamentals transfer from rifle to rifle, but they absolutely need to be able to be comfortable with the rifle that they are going to be packing through the woods.

I agree that brakes can work, especially paired with adequate hearing protection, if there is such a thing? But with the brakes, many guys think they can brake something with 270 level recoil and it should be good to go for smaller kids. I have not seen this work, as recoil is still too much. Somewhere about 243 level recoil with a good brake works pretty good, but not for the smaller new shooters.

I have also done the reduced loading, specifically in 243, and that has worked out as far as practice, but gives lower than 233tmk results on game. Also creates a whole bunch of extra work for me, time that we could just spend shooting.

 

[Turkeytider]

To be clear, I am not trying to be argumenative, and agree that we all have to make our own choices.

The thing is though, I don't think a lot of people understand the scale of recoil and its effects on peoples size. I know I sure didn't, but am learning. My first small daughter shot a light easy to handle 243, and only shot it enough to make sure it was zerod for her. Shooting lots of 22lr in between. This is a rifle that to me had no recoil, but watching her shoot it was every dramatic. She developed a serious flinch, that I didn't even notice until she missed a couple animals. She has grown a lot, and done lots of shooting since then, but when given the chance to shoot that rifle the other day made excuses to not shoot it.....

I agree that shooting fundamentals transfer from rifle to rifle, but they absolutely need to be able to be comfortable with the rifle that they are going to be packing through the woods.

I agree that brakes can work, especially paired with adequate hearing protection, if there is such a thing? But with the brakes, many guys think they can brake something with 270 level recoil and it should be good to go for smaller kids. I have not seen this work, as recoil is still too much. Somewhere about 243 level recoil with a good brake works pretty good, but not for the smaller new shooters.

I have also done the reduced loading, specifically in 243, and that has worked out as far as practice, but gives lower than 233tmk results on game. Also creates a whole bunch of extra work for me, time that we could just spend shooting.

Depending on the gun, with a brake on I can feel the concussion three shooting bays away sometimes. Shortened my range day more than once! I don`t make a deal of it. He`s got as much right to be there as I do.

 

[atmat]

Depending on the gun, with a brake on I can feel the concussion three shooting bays away sometimes. Shortened my range day more than once! I don`t make a deal of it. He`s got as much right to be there as I do.

I legitimately won’t shoot with guys that use brakes anymore. My hunting buddy and best friend hates it, but it’s just not pleasant.

I feel his braked 30-06 in my eyes through glasses unless I’m a good ways back.

 

[fwafwow]

I legitimately won’t shoot with guys that use brakes anymore. My hunting buddy and best friend hates it, but it’s just not pleasant.

Ditto.

BUT, I have to confess some hypocrisy to my post #49 above. On Saturday I had to shoot with someone who had a MB on a 16.5" 223 rifle. Me. Long story, but I did wear double ear pro, it was "only one shot" - and I was in a box stand blind with the barrel out of the window. I don't plan on doing that again, but I also didn't plan to put myself in that situation.

 

[NSI]

I don't know what it is about ARs, but the concussion and noise always feels asymmetric to me relative to bolt guns. Probably just the gas coming out of the ejection port, maybe some of the moving parts.

However .... Shot my 14.5 JAKL with HXWRX Flow 5565k yesterday and was pleasantly surprised with signature.

-J

 

[Mike D Texas]

I can't find a Grendel bolt action sold with youth stock, which seems crazy to me, especially when they are literally called "mini". I have 4 cases of grendel ammo and don't like handing kids an AR.

Here you go.

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[PlumberED]

I would keep the 7mm-08 and add a .223 training/hunting rifle (you know a man can’t have too many rifles). Nothing wrong with the 7mm-08 however, you will be well served by a .223 rifle to start the kids shooting a centerfire rifle. The kids will love shooting the mild recoiling .223 especially if you add the suppressor.

 

[BAC]

Unfortunately I can't edit the original post to clarify, but I haven't purchased the rifle yet. I came here prior to doing that to make sure I was on the right track. As it stands now, I'm hunting rifle-less.

Also, it turns out I was wrong about the discounts on ExpertVoice compared to the lower-than-msrp prices of Optics Planet and the like. Holy smokes. It's expanding my options quite a bit, for better or worse. I'm going to have to see how US Optics' products rank on the scope evaluation here.

 

[WRO]

For learning, .223 with a suppressor will make an amazing experience.

Check out the .223 77 gr Sierra TMK thread and you’ll see you can hunt bear, elk, and moose.

On the Rokslide Special, get the scope you want, but check out reviews. The SWFA are known to be bombproof and budget friendly if you can find them.

Not legally in several states just an fyi..


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