Thought I had settled on a good "first rifle + glass" combo, less sure now

[PNWGATOR]

Curious if you’ve read this thread:

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

 

[Fisherhahn]

I’d echo what others are saying about sticking with what you have. A 7mm08 really doesn’t kick that hard, especially with a light load. Have you had the kids try shooting it? Have they shot much of anything else? How old are they? If there are very small, will they even want to hunt when they are old enough? If they are very small, get them shooting a 22 until they are comfortable with the mechanics of shooting. Let them watch you shoot the 7mm08 then ask them if they want to try it, then see how they do

 

[JGRaider]

A huge "Amen" to the 120gr NBT 7-08 combo. I started my son and nephew on this, and it's deadly to say the least. Tame the velocity down to 2750 or so, add a suppressor, and you're golden. A good 7-08 has very few peers for big game hunting IMO.

 

[atmat]

A fair bit of research into a good all-purpose, mild mannered hunting rifle for both me and the kids to learn on landed me on a Savage 110 Lightweight Storm in 7mm-08, with a Leupold Mark 3HD 4-12x40 firedot and some lightweight rings from Talley or something. Eventual replacement of stock with Mesa Precision Altitude and threading muzzle for Thunder Beast Ultra 5. The plan sounded great until I'm starting to read here that maybe we shouldn't be starting our small kids on a 7mm-08. I might be taking for granted the substantial mass difference between myself and the rest of the family and what would be mild in recoil for me would still be pretty bruising for them.

So now I'm reconsidering the whole plan... again.

I'm reading up on this Rokslide Special and I'm not quite sure what it means. Generally it seems to be a Tikka gun in a lighter caliber? Possibly with a fixed power scope?

For discussion's sake: I had thought to make this a one-gun-buy to hunt deer and hog locally (FL) to learn on and get experience with before going out west and north for bigger game. It seemed like 7mm-08 was a great round for that but, like I said, maybe I'm overestimating what a small child would enjoy shooting. Whatever I pick I want to be fairly lightweight because I'm going to be backpacking or hiking in and out since that's part of the draw to the whole experience for me. Leupold offers a pretty substantial discount for me and seemed like the best lighter-weight solution for optics; whatever I get for glass, I'm very much drawn toward illuminated reticles due to some vision limitations.

Is the original plan still worth pursuing, or would I be better served by focusing my efforts first on a smaller caliber, milder recoiling rifle that can effectively hunt Southern game and be more suitable for kids and then later get a bigger thing to hunt bigger things with?

A 7-08 does kick quite a bit for new shooter, particularly if young or smaller in stature. A .243 bullet will be legal in basically all western states if you want to only have one gun.

The easy answer is a fast-twist .243 Tikka cut and threaded. I would skip the Leupold scope as they’re expensive and unreliable.

I would go with a better suppressor than the Ultra5. It’s better than nothing but it doesn’t suppress to hearing safe.

 

[Macintosh]

I dont agree that a 7-08 doesnt kick that hard. A little over 12 ft lb for the lightest of 7mm08 loads, compared to less than 5ft lb for even a souped-up 223 (over a 50% reduction fron even the mildest 7-08) or 9 and change for a standard off the shelf 243 (a 25% reduction in recoil). Big kid maybe its not such an issue, but its still hurting their ability to learn. if we’re talking about a smaller, younger kid, maybe one who is halfhearted at first, the recoil can only possibly hurt their desire to stick with shooting and hunting, and hurt their ability to learn to shoot proficiently—there’s no upside to recoil, but there is clear and undeniable down side. Make it work if $ is prohibitive, but if thats not the issue or if buying for the first time and deciding on a cartridge I would personally never choose a 7-08 over any of the other options in this thread for a kid or even a smaller adult. Adults will never outgrow a 223 even if it becomes a practice rifle. Load it right and shoot any deer with it. And if you need more gun to be confident on larger game you already have the 7-08 they can grow into.

 

[TaperPin]

The 223, Grendel or Arc cartridges sound great for kids. I’ll be on the lookout for a light little gun for the grandson - there must be a huge young shooter market.

 

[black dawg]

After teaching a few kids to shoot, last of them with 223, I wouldn't start anybody on any more than a 223.

The lightweight savage is nice because they can shoot it if hand, but the action takes a lot for them to run, and just doesn't function nearly as smoothly as a tikka. My advice would be the tikka in 223 and let them burn up some ammo. For practice my daughters shoot 50gr reloads, I have had them shoot the 77tmk and eldm hunting loads and the difference in recoil for them is pretty surprising.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Tikka T3x Stainless Lite in .223 Rem (1:8 twist)
SWFA fixed 6x or 3-9x
Sportmatch or UM rings
Vertical grip
Chop barrel and thread for suppressor if you can swing it

Everyone in your family will enjoy shooting that gun. Hornady Frontier 68 and 75 BTHP are cheap as heck and shoot pretty good in mine.

This ^^^^^^^^^. And don't look back.

Randy

 

[go_deep]

But a cheap .22 for the kids to shoot. Teach them all of the basics to shooting on it, then move forward with a centerfire.

 

[Antares]

I’d recommend this entire package except in Tikks’s compact model.

I absolutely agree with this. I always forget about the Compact given my 14.5” LOP. Good catch.

 

[hereinaz]

After teaching a few kids to shoot, last of them with 223, I wouldn't start anybody on any more than a 223.

The lightweight savage is nice because they can shoot it if hand, but the action takes a lot for them to run, and just doesn't function nearly as smoothly as a tikka. My advice would be the tikka in 223 and let them burn up some ammo. For practice my daughters shoot 50gr reloads, I have had them shoot the 77tmk and eldm hunting loads and the difference in recoil for them is pretty surprising.

The 7-08 is fine and can be loaded light, but there is no comparison for teaching without the recoil that comes from powder and bullet size.

I agree that teaching centerfire with a .223, or maybe a 6 arc, 6.5 Grendel in states requiring larger caliber is the way to go.

There is difference to the kids who can master the .223 and love it vs shoot the 7-08 ok but tire of it faster. I have seen it too.

It is infectious to succeed and repeatedly.

 

[BAC]

Curious if you’ve read this thread:

.223 for bear, deer, elk and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

Holy crap. Great find man, I appreciate it. I'm heading to work but if I can find some down time you gave me some great reading material to learn from.

 

[hereinaz]

Holy crap. Great find man, I appreciate it. I'm heading to work but if I can find some down time you gave me some great reading material to learn from.

Get ready for drinking from a firehose! It’s page after page of amazing proof.

PNWGATOR is the man who started the thread and is the Patron Saint to new shooters who get handed a .223 to learn with and then make perfect shots in the field.

Some of us just appreciate the confidence that the animal will die when we are shooting “smaller calibers and cartridges”.

 

[BAC]

Last note before driving and then eventually reading, the ONLY detraction I have with .223 is that I know some places preclude it's use. I'm going to need to research where specifically and then weigh my likelihood of travel to those places. In FL we can take deer with .223 so it's still an option on the table for a "rifle now rifle later" scenario. The grendel would be more of a one and done rifle. Which night also be a whimsy because my wife and daughter have already adopted my .22s so why would I think they wouldn't also adopt a comfy enough bolt gun.

Anyway, great info everyone, it does sound like I was on the wrong track initially so I'm glad I signed up and got some guidance before throwing money around.

 

[The Guide]

The 7-08 is fine and can be loaded light, but there is no comparison for teaching without the recoil that comes from powder and bullet size.

I agree that teaching centerfire with a .223, or maybe a 6 arc, 6.5 Grendel in states requiring larger caliber is the way to go.

There is difference to the kids who can master the .223 and love it vs shoot the 7-08 ok but tire of it faster. I have seen it too.

It is infectious to succeed and repeatedly.

My son (13) started with a 22 Cricket (@4 years old) then moved to the 6.5 Grendel and then to a 7mm-08 with reduced loads and now all he wants to shoot is my "SPICY CREEDMOOR" aka the 6.5 PRC. Amazing how fast they grow as a rifleman when the progression is natural. We burned up lots of 223 ammo this summer practicing positional shooting and double tapping (watch the initial impact and rack and follow up) steel at distance. He made a great shot in an antelope buck at 440 yards this season. At the initial shot the buck dropped his head and took 2 wobbly steps forward. My son saw the impact, racked the bolt, and was back on for a second shot in under 5 seconds. The buck dropped at the 2nd shot. When we got to the buck both shots were just inches apart all on the same water line. He was super happy with his first antelope.



The keys to building good marksmanship skills are start with light recoiling rifles (even air rifles) and gradually work you way up as your skills improve. My personal experience for natural progression is to start with air rifle (preferably a PCP), then move to a rimfire, next a 22 caliber centerfire (22 Hornet or 223), and then a mild recoiling hunting caliber.

Just one man's opinion.

Jay

 

[KenLee]

You know, I had resigned myself to a rifle now and another later, but I completely forgot about the 6.5 Grendel. Checking my notes that's only a hair "harder" recoiling than 5.56 and is on paper less than 7.62x39. I think that might be the ticket. Good call Guide, that looks like a great choice for a rifle that can hunt coast to coast and still be very pleasant to shoot.

Right now I'm seeing a Trijicon 3-9 Credo for $521 shipped... that looks worth pulling the trigger on? At least I'll have the scope squared away. Then shop for one of these auction Howa Mini Actions on Gunbroker and hope it stays sub- to low-$400s. Sure would be nice getting the whole package for a grand.

I can't find a Grendel bolt action sold with youth stock, which seems crazy to me, especially when they are literally called "mini". I have 4 cases of grendel ammo and don't like handing kids an AR.

 

[KenLee]

A fair bit of research into a good all-purpose, mild mannered hunting rifle for both me and the kids to learn on landed me on a Savage 110 Lightweight Storm in 7mm-08, with a Leupold Mark 3HD 4-12x40 firedot and some lightweight rings from Talley or something. Eventual replacement of stock with Mesa Precision Altitude and threading muzzle for Thunder Beast Ultra 5. The plan sounded great until I'm starting to read here that maybe we shouldn't be starting our small kids on a 7mm-08. I might be taking for granted the substantial mass difference between myself and the rest of the family and what would be mild in recoil for me would still be pretty bruising for them.

So now I'm reconsidering the whole plan... again.

I'm reading up on this Rokslide Special and I'm not quite sure what it means. Generally it seems to be a Tikka gun in a lighter caliber? Possibly with a fixed power scope?

For discussion's sake: I had thought to make this a one-gun-buy to hunt deer and hog locally (FL) to learn on and get experience with before going out west and north for bigger game. It seemed like 7mm-08 was a great round for that but, like I said, maybe I'm overestimating what a small child would enjoy shooting. Whatever I pick I want to be fairly lightweight because I'm going to be backpacking or hiking in and out since that's part of the draw to the whole experience for me. Leupold offers a pretty substantial discount for me and seemed like the best lighter-weight solution for optics; whatever I get for glass, I'm very much drawn toward illuminated reticles due to some vision limitations.

Is the original plan still worth pursuing, or would I be better served by focusing my efforts first on a smaller caliber, milder recoiling rifle that can effectively hunt Southern game and be more suitable for kids and then later get a bigger thing to hunt bigger things with?

How big are the kids?
An x-bolt micro midas 7mm-08 spitting 120 gr NBT or TTSX is a sweet shooter.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

I'm sure there's lots of great feedback but I haven't read the thread yet. Just wanted to mention that 7-08 is really mild with reduced recoil rounds, combine that with your suppressor and I think it's still a good option. It also becomes less of a concern every year as the kids grow.

 

[fwafwow]

Last note before driving and then eventually reading, the ONLY detraction I have with .223 is that I know some places preclude it's use. I'm going to need to research where specifically and then weigh my likelihood of travel to those places. In FL we can take deer with .223 so it's still an option on the table for a "rifle now rifle later" scenario. The grendel would be more of a one and done rifle. Which night also be a whimsy because my wife and daughter have already adopted my .22s so why would I think they wouldn't also adopt a comfy enough bolt gun.

Anyway, great info everyone, it does sound like I was on the wrong track initially so I'm glad I signed up and got some guidance before throwing money around.

Enjoy the journey of that thread, which may lead you to others. There are some posts in this thread that suggest the 223 is a great stepping stone to higher recoil calibers. But it can instead be the destination - even for an adult. True, a 223 won't be legal in all states for some types of game, but you can always get another rifle when and if needed (I suspect the way the lottery and point systems work out west, it will be later than you want). And if you need that other rifle, it too might be "smaller" than you think - say even 6mm CM or 6.5mm CM.

I was just in GA deer camp with two of my buddies. One was shooting a 6.5-300 (he has two customs), but he's also more often shooting a 22 CM. His BIL was shooting a 30-06, and talked about a Browning 300 WM that he can't seem to get to shoot straight (scope maybe?). But they both looked at me skeptically yesterday when I showed them the 223 73gr ELD-M. But after I shot my deer with it (DRT), I can tell they are wondering why they shoot heavier recoil rifles.

 

[cuttingedge]

A fair bit of research into a good all-purpose, mild mannered hunting rifle for both me and the kids to learn on landed me on a Savage 110 Lightweight Storm in 7mm-08, with a Leupold Mark 3HD 4-12x40 firedot and some lightweight rings from Talley or something. Eventual replacement of stock with Mesa Precision Altitude and threading muzzle for Thunder Beast Ultra 5. The plan sounded great until I'm starting to read here that maybe we shouldn't be starting our small kids on a 7mm-08. I might be taking for granted the substantial mass difference between myself and the rest of the family and what would be mild in recoil for me would still be pretty bruising for them.

So now I'm reconsidering the whole plan... again.

I'm reading up on this Rokslide Special and I'm not quite sure what it means. Generally it seems to be a Tikka gun in a lighter caliber? Possibly with a fixed power scope?

For discussion's sake: I had thought to make this a one-gun-buy to hunt deer and hog locally (FL) to learn on and get experience with before going out west and north for bigger game. It seemed like 7mm-08 was a great round for that but, like I said, maybe I'm overestimating what a small child would enjoy shooting. Whatever I pick I want to be fairly lightweight because I'm going to be backpacking or hiking in and out since that's part of the draw to the whole experience for me. Leupold offers a pretty substantial discount for me and seemed like the best lighter-weight solution for optics; whatever I get for glass, I'm very much drawn toward illuminated reticles due to some vision limitations.

Is the original plan still worth pursuing, or would I be better served by focusing my efforts first on a smaller caliber, milder recoiling rifle that can effectively hunt Southern game and be more suitable for kids and then later get a bigger thing to hunt bigger things with?

6mm ARC in either an AR15 or a bolt gun. Very mild recoil but enough bullet and energy to get the job done. I rebarreled my 6.5 Gendel AR with a Satern 6mm ARC 20" and I love it. It is very accurate and really fun to shoot. Ammo is running me $28 to $34 per 20. Can't recommend it enough for your purpose.