Thought I had settled on a good "first rifle + glass" combo, less sure now

[atmat]

6mm ARC in either an AR15 or a bolt gun. Very mild recoil but enough bullet and energy to get the job done. I rebarreled my 6.5 Gendel AR with a Satern 6mm ARC 20" and I love it. It is very accurate and really fun to shoot. Ammo is running me $28 to $34 per 20. Can't recommend it enough for your purpose.

The issue is that getting multiple family members shooting proficiently requires significant ammo down range. At $1.50/round, that money adds up.

223 ammo can be had for one-third the price. It’s why so many of use it for a trainer.

For perspective, by 750 rounds, the cost difference of ammo could buy new stainless Tikka.

 

[atmat]

What quality 223 ammo are you buying for $0.50/round?

You can get AAC black tip Sabre (i.e., ELD-M) for $0.55/round.

And for training, you just need something that shoots relatively well. It can be cheap FMJs as long as they print.

 

[EMAZ]

A fair bit of research into a good all-purpose, mild mannered hunting rifle for both me and the kids to learn on landed me on a Savage 110 Lightweight Storm in 7mm-08, with a Leupold Mark 3HD 4-12x40 firedot and some lightweight rings from Talley or something. Eventual replacement of stock with Mesa Precision Altitude and threading muzzle for Thunder Beast Ultra 5. The plan sounded great until I'm starting to read here that maybe we shouldn't be starting our small kids on a 7mm-08. I might be taking for granted the substantial mass difference between myself and the rest of the family and what would be mild in recoil for me would still be pretty bruising for them.

So now I'm reconsidering the whole plan... again.

I'm reading up on this Rokslide Special and I'm not quite sure what it means. Generally it seems to be a Tikka gun in a lighter caliber? Possibly with a fixed power scope?

For discussion's sake: I had thought to make this a one-gun-buy to hunt deer and hog locally (FL) to learn on and get experience with before going out west and north for bigger game. It seemed like 7mm-08 was a great round for that but, like I said, maybe I'm overestimating what a small child would enjoy shooting. Whatever I pick I want to be fairly lightweight because I'm going to be backpacking or hiking in and out since that's part of the draw to the whole experience for me. Leupold offers a pretty substantial discount for me and seemed like the best lighter-weight solution for optics; whatever I get for glass, I'm very much drawn toward illuminated reticles due to some vision limitations.

Is the original plan still worth pursuing, or would I be better served by focusing my efforts first on a smaller caliber, milder recoiling rifle that can effectively hunt Southern game and be more suitable for kids and then later get a bigger thing to hunt bigger things with?

If you don’t already have the rifle, I’d look at a tikka t3x compact (should be about $100 less than the savage referenced above too). The length of pull (LOP) with the spacer removed goes down to 12.5” versus the 12.75” on the savage (may not seem significant, but with smaller stature shooters, every .25” counts on the reduction side. Can always add the insert back as the kids grow).

FL regs appear to just specify centerfire rifle for deer, so .223 could be an option. If you plan to go out of state, might consider either the .243, 6.5CM, or 7mm-08 to ensure you don’t run into caliber/cartridge limitations with a .223.

A .22LR is also a great practice round for kids just getting started to learn mechanics/technique before jumping into a centerfire…not only is the recoil less, the sound is less intimidating as well (even assuming with hearing protection always). This was the route I went with my son when he was 9… the following year he drew a youth cow elk tag and had no problem switching to a 7mm-08 and dropping the lead cow at 120 yards with a 150gr eld-x off bog pod shooting sticks.

He’s 13 now (plus a good 6+” taller) and can regularly shoot moa off a bipod at 100 yards with the tikka 7mm-08 (1st target with 139gr hornady whitetail 3 shot target practice; 2nd is 150gr eld-x 5 shot with adjustments to have a ~2” high 0 at 100yds). YMMV…but has worked out well for us.

 

[BAC]

Why not the Lightweight Storm in .223? Have you looked into a simple re-barrel of the gun you have? I have a 110 Storm ( not the Lightweight model ) in .223 and it`s been great.

Doesn't look like I can edit the original post to clarify, but by "landed on" I only mean decided, not purchased. Fortunately I had enough smarts to post the plan here for critique before sending money anywhere.


Re: recoil & weight
ResearchinStuff's mentioning of how .223 recoil is shaking his 75lb kid is a damn good data point for me. My daughter is light for her age and looks to be staying that way, so I think using .223 as a benchmark for total recoil is a good idea. I think this keeps Grendel on the table (for now) because of how similar their recoil is, particularly tamed with a suppressor, but this dovetails into the discussion about progression as they grow in size and experience. It's looking more and more like a .223 rifle is both a good starting point for the kids and good enough on local (FL) game for me to practice on.

My kids are both still quite young and small. My youngest (son) hasn't really expressed any special interest in shooting, but my daughter is all of 50lbs and is now officially tall enough to ride all of the roller coasters. Dainty thing but in the midst of a growth spurt as we speak. She and mama love my little M&P 15-22, but my offspring specifically wants to come out with her old man to hunt. It's probably the most adamant she's ever been about showing interest in something so I want to develop this as much as possible.


Re: learning cost
My stockpile of .223 and 5.56 is primarily oriented towards work and training with ARs; a couple cases of Wolf Gold, a few hundred rounds of this Australian-made .223 w/ 69gr smk that's silly accurate out of every gun I've seen it shot through, and the Gold Dots from work. Whatever gun and caliber I get, I'll have to get ammo for. I expect this and it's part of the planning process.


Rifle Ergos
Aside from being reasonably priced, the only hard stipulation I have about the rifle suggestions is that they either come with a stock that has a more vertical grip or a lighter weight (<3lb) stock/chassis is available for it that has a more vertical grip. I've got some pretty poor wrist flexibility and the more traditional grip angles range from very uncomfortable to painful for me. For my original plan, I had expected to replace the Savage stock with a Mesa Precision Altitude at some point; a stock like this one checks basically all of the boxes for me.



I'm still reading through PNWGATOR's topic on hunting with the .223, but it's confirming my suspicion that much of my "knowledge" from the more tactical LEO space is at pretty stark odds with the experiences of hunters. More and more it appears that, like with handguns, shot placement (marksmanship) and a good bullet design are much bigger factors than the actual cartridge for successful hunts. This is something I'm going to need to mull over more because it's such a different thought process than I've had prior to deciding I wanted to get into hunting.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Purchase the vertical grip modula for the T3x Compact.

When the kids outgrow the compact, put the rifle in a RokStock or find a full size T3x stock in the classifieds.

If I was only killing big game animals inside of 450 yds, the 223 is all I’d choose. For anything.

 

[BAC]

Damn. That's as firm an endorsement as it gets huh. Any particular barrel length? My head says 22"+ but my head also told me .223 wasn't enough for big game so...

 

[fwafwow]

You are smart to do research before teaching your kids. I think I may have turned my daughter off of firearms at a young age when we went to an indoor range. Even with ear pro, the loud noise was detrimental. I'd encourage spending some time researching the best ways to protect your kids' hearing. Don't make the mistakes I and others did on ourselves. FWIW:

• foamies are convenient, but are rarely used correctly and not sufficient
• I personally will never shoot at an indoor range, even with double ear pro
• I don't shoot near anyone with a muzzle brake, even with double ear pro
• I always use the best ear pro I can at the moment (some combination of in the ear, over the ear and suppressed).

 

[PNWGATOR]

Cut it 18-20” and put a can on it.

 

[Boltgun]

You mentioned you get a good deal on Leupold? Is that a military/first responder/industry discount? If so, Trijicon and Nightforce also give great discounts for those fields.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Skip the “good deal on a Leupold”.

 

[atmat]

Cut it 18-20” and put a can on it.

Ahem, 16” or bust.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Skip the “good deal on a Leupold”.

Yes! I had lots of “good loopy” deals…. Had 2 of them magically floating zeros, which were placed on rim fires and selling off all the others. Had a few that worked, but definitely take a deep dive in the scope testing page. There are so far 3 manufacturers that will give you the best odds of getting a scope that will function as you think it should. Swfa, trijicon, and NF why spend money on something you may have to replace or something that you are constantly “confirming” zero on?

 

[BAC]

You mentioned you get a good deal on Leupold? Is that a military/first responder/industry discount? If so, Trijicon and Nightforce also give great discounts for those fields.

Correct sir. I see a few brands that offer some pretty compelling discounts, but with Trijicon their MSRP is so much higher than street price at Optics Planet or similar that I kind of doubt the discount would amount to less than what other vendors sell their scopes at. Maybe I'm wrong? They use ExpertVoice for verification so it doesn't seem to automatically display the discount like Leupold does.

Also, super disappointing to hear how many here say to pass on Leupold. I'd always held them in higher regard but I've also never humped one through the woods. Different uses, different outcomes.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Correct sir. I see a few brands that offer some pretty compelling discounts, but with Trijicon their MSRP is so much higher than street price at Optics Planet or similar that I kind of doubt the discount would amount to less than what other vendors sell their scopes at. Maybe I'm wrong? They use ExpertVoice for verification so it doesn't seem to automatically display the discount like Leupold does.

Also, super disappointing to hear how many here say to pass on Leupold. I'd always held them in higher regard but I've also never humped one through the woods. Different uses, different outcomes.

In my mind the loopy 3-15x44 was the ultimate in hunting scopes… and it would be if it consistently held zero and tracked…. I would look at the credo line in trijicon or tenmile. Eurooptic has some great deals for less than what you would pay for a 3-15 loopy ExpertVoice has some fantastic deals on NF, Swfa has sales lots of backordered stuff and it takes a while so take that into account

 

[amassi]

Correct sir. I see a few brands that offer some pretty compelling discounts, but with Trijicon their MSRP is so much higher than street price at Optics Planet or similar that I kind of doubt the discount would amount to less than what other vendors sell their scopes at. Maybe I'm wrong? They use ExpertVoice for verification so it doesn't seem to automatically display the discount like Leupold does.

Also, super disappointing to hear how many here say to pass on Leupold. I'd always held them in higher regard but I've also never humped one through the woods. Different uses, different outcomes.

Eurooptics has a mil discount
Plus if that price isn’t low enough, e-mail them and make an offer. They are great to deal with

 

[The Guide]

I can't find a Grendel bolt action sold with youth stock, which seems crazy to me, especially when they are literally called "mini". I have 4 cases of grendel ammo and don't like handing kids an AR.

Pre-Covid they had a factory Howa Mini Action option that came scoped and had 2 stocks. One was a compact stock and the other was a full sized stock. The whole package was around $650 bucks. This was after I'd bought both my kids their Grendel's so somewhere in the 2016 to 2018 range if I remember correctly. You honestly don't see that many used Howa Mini Actions on Gunbroker so people must be liking what they buy.

Jay

 

[Brontosaurus]

Rifle Scope Field Evaluations

rokslide.com

Here's why everyone is picky about their scopes. And for good reason!

 

[BAC]

Maybe a dumb question, but does Tikka have a stainless compact? If I find a compact stock on ebay or something, would it have any problems mating with a stainless lite barreled action assembly?

Also thanks folks for the heads-up on other vendors. I'm unfamiliar with Euro Optics so I'll have to check them out.

 

[Marbles]

Maybe a dumb question, but does Tikka have a stainless compact? If I find a compact stock on ebay or something, would it have any problems mating with a stainless lite barreled action assembly?

Also thanks folks for the heads-up on other vendors. I'm unfamiliar with Euro Optics so I'll have to check them out.

No stainless compact. Yes, any Tikka stock will fit another Tikka.

 

[black dawg]

If I had it to do over, I would have a matching 22lr and 223 for them to practice with.

My younger daughter that is shooting now is small and about 70lbs. Some days she can shoot 30 plus round of 50grn 223, shooting in different positions, and shooting better than most adults, but the recoil does eventually wear her out. Had her shoot some of my 77tmk loads kneeling off pack and offhand. That amount of recoil looked to be a bit much for her.

Had her shoot my heavy..ish 6.5 creed with a very soft load, and she didn't want to shoot it again. It is really easy to be too much recoil for them.