The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[passinggas33]

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These look an awful lot like to the DPT Machinists suppressors out of New Zealand that I have used extensively while shooting down there. If they are close in function to those, then we will be in for a real treat. Now those are made out of steel, can rust if not cared for, are “heavy” and have a lifespan…but they are so cheap down there. I think like $2-300 USD or something like that. So if these are titanium or something other than relatively cheap steel, I will be putting down my money tomorrow. This type of suppressor usually has great tone, good recoil pulses, and ultimately decreases overall length. Sorry for the rant, but this got me excited seeing this picture.

 

[HighUintas]

These look an awful lot like to the DPT Machinists suppressors out of New Zealand that I have used extensively while shooting down there. If they are close in function to those, then we will be in for a real treat. Now those are made out of steel, can rust if not cared for, are “heavy” and have a lifespan…but they are so cheap down there. I think like $2-300 USD or something like that. So if these are titanium or something other than relatively cheap steel, I will be putting down my money tomorrow. This type of suppressor usually has great tone, good recoil pulses, and ultimately decreases overall length. Sorry for the rant, but this got me excited seeing this picture.

They're 3d printed Ti.

They gave me permission to collect for preorders

 

[passinggas33]

They're 3d printed Ti.

They gave me permission to collect for preorders

If this is true, I’m a little nervous about the price tag. Not saying I’m not in, just hope the price tag remains decent. I feel like the very little I watch the market the price tags seem to be going up. But I haven’t been watching much. And the idea of supply vs demand much in regards to suppressors. It seems like every dick and harry keep putting out suppressors so I would think the supply outweighs the demand, but I could be 100% wrong. Regardless it makes me happy that more and more people are shooting suppressed and making that a priority in their lives.

 

[gbflyer]

I don't need a 10 shot group with a barrel that comes from my smith. He's cut over 40 bbls for me in the last 6 years. I have developed expectations due to their performance and I'm not let down. The last 6cm prefit he spun, put on an origin and it printed 10 shots of 108 eldm 6cm factory at 5/8" shots 6-15 from the rifle. I shoot factory rarely. All my rifles have run perfectly from accurate, mdt, hawkins aics mags, some from AW. Once mag lips are tuned, I've never had to retune to get them right in another action. I have prob 25 mags to cover all my rem700 short action clone aics needs, there hasn't been a single one that's given me much a problem yet.

Here's what a custom gets me personally:
Infinite options of material, finish, configuration imaginable.

But the most important when I go to Manzella Precision, Alex Wheeler or Dallas Lane, I get impeccable machine work, 0.0000 dial ins at chamber and muzzle, 100% perfectly stress free bed jobs, vetted thorough assembly and fitment. These are the things a cannot and will not trust to a man thats getting paid hourly to complete properly or to perfection. A one man gunsmiths entire operation rides on his reputation. That reputation is made and broken by his own hands. Observed plenty of high dollar rifles I've been around with shit bedding, crooked chambers, because it was Friday at the Proof factory? Or a hung over Monday morning at Alamo Precision Arms? Or just a plain ol random luck of draw Christensen?

I'm not saying my customs are better than the S2H colab. My rokstock 6cm is a Zermatt Ti3 with a 20in lt palma ace. I know the BnA trigger installed isn't Siberia friendly, it'll 100% fail before the M70 trigger. It does however feed out of every steel, aluminum or plastic aics mag I've tried. It shoots fantastic. Will it do that with an overnight coat of snow stuffed in? Idk prob not, haven't tested nor put it in the situation to see if it fails me.

Are aftermarket barrels a superior product to factory rifle barrels, yes absolutely.

Triggers? When the geissele super700 becomes available again I'll put one on every rifle I owm, at that point I'll at least be on par with the best triggers available.

@Imac45acp what are the differences between a S2H colab rifle VS your highline? I I'm quite certain a McMillan is more expensive than the rokstok. The barrels should be the same exact finish and quality, yes? The detail to machining and bedding should be the same, yes? I want to know what an extra $1300-1400 gets me besides a target and 2 mags.

Also, a question I've asked twice with no answer yet, is the starter thread on your actions in the same exact spot on every action? It'd have to be for this action to be prefit capable with the tenon extractor relief cut.

I believe he stated the receiver is built like a Mauser with a C ring. The barrel doesn’t have an extractor cut like a Model 70.

I have some decent customs too. About $4500 is the price of admission. The MRC is a good value if it goes as projected. Let’s not BS, none of us “need” any of these, but we like them.

 

[NSI]

To be clear: I'm glad The Marshall is happening. And I will point non-tinkerers towards it for a known-good rifle solution that doesn't require a whole bunch of my time to set up and debug.

However, the inference is as follows. 3850-2595 or $1,255 buys you:
-Function testing (1 round every 2 seconds, 200 seconds of work)
-Firing a 10 round group and presumably increasing the scrap rate by 5% (30 minutes of work charitably)
-With two magazines
-Roughly a wash in stock and bottom metal cost

That's objectively poor optics, and I'll stop short of making a value judgement.

I know this is not the price point any of us imagined when this project was announced. We'll see how it sells. I'd still rather have a Marshall at nearly any price point than even the finest 700 clone. I still want one in wood and 308.

-J

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

To be clear: I'm glad The Marshall is happening. And I will point non-tinkerers towards it for a known-good rifle solution that doesn't require a whole bunch of my time to set up and debug.

However, the inference is as follows. 3850-2595 or $1,255 buys you:
-Function testing (1 round every 2 seconds, 200 seconds of work)
-Firing a 10 round group and presumably increasing the scrap rate by 5% (30 minutes of work charitably)
-With two magazines
-Roughly a wash in stock and bottom metal cost

That's objectively poor optics, and I'll stop short of making a value judgement.

I know this is not the price point any of us imagined when this project was announced. We'll see how it sells. I'd still rather have a Marshall at nearly any price point than even the finest 700 clone. I still want one in wood and 308.

-J

I’d say that those steps are pretty minor league for a lot of us WKR’s, and in light of that, not worth paying someone else to do.. especially when you know that if any of us buy the rifle we’re going to take it apart to verify that these things were actually done right from the factory anyway

The MRC standalone action appeals to me a lot more than the complete rifle.

However there’s no denying the benefit to the industry as a whole, as well as the value of a properly set up rifle to the majority of hunters that are not as familiar with how this should be done.

 

[Formidilosus]

To be clear: I'm glad The Marshall is happening. And I will point non-tinkerers towards it for a known-good rifle solution that doesn't require a whole bunch of my time to set up and debug.

Let’s go through each point and take them at face value.

Quite frankly, it seems part of this consternation with the price, is people have no baseline for what a proper CRF rifle costs. Comparing any properly timed and built CRF to a R700 based “custom” is apples and oranges.

Let start with the first question- if you want what this rifles offers, how are you replicating it? And how are you getting it for less money?

However, the inference is as follows. 3850-2595 or $1,255 buys you:
-Function testing (1 round every 2 seconds, 200 seconds of work)

You believe that is that is happening- load mags and cycle? And is that how long it takes? What gunsmith that actually understands how CRF needs to work and be timed will you go to for them to fully function test it? How much will they charge?
Keep in mind, the only one that function tests every rifle and is watching and checking every part of the cycle of operation… starts at $15,000 for synthetic stocked rifle. And he doesn’t do 100 rounds and multiple magazines.

-Firing a 10 round group and presumably increasing the scrap rate by 5% (30 minutes of work charitably)

Ok. What does your gunsmith charge to fire a 10 round group and guarantee it’s under 1.5 MOA with common/factory ammo? The last one I new that would do it, charged $450 extra a barrel/rifle.

-With two magazines

Yes. Two magazines that 100% work from your rifle.

-Roughly a wash in stock and bottom metal cost

Stock yes, bottom metal no. They have to purchase the bottom metal, and it isn’t all that cheap- to develop or produce. It is a very well designed piece.

That's objectively poor optics, and I'll stop short of making a value judgement.

I couldn’t disagree more. Quite frankly most don’t have enough money for what it would cost to replicate this rifle using a gunsmith.

CRF that uses prefits- OK, buy another MRC for $2,595. Scrap everything but the action, trigger, and bolt. Get a new barrel fitted- $600-$900. Get a gunsmith or machine shop to make a one off bolt handle and knob (about $300 last I found), and a one off AICS bottom metal (very, very low end, $500). If you want a ROKStok at this point for it, either buy the mold and get a company to copy it ($50,000 to $100,000) or pay $1,800 for a wood stock. $130’ish for two mags. Then on the low end, $400 to fully and completely through every part of the cycle of operation- not just with the 2x mags the tokens coming with, but a stack of random mags too- if you can even find a gunsmith that will do it, and knows what they are doing.

I know this is not the price point any of us imagined when this project was announced. We'll see how it sells. I'd still rather have a Marshall at nearly any price point than even the finest 700 clone. I still want one in wood and 308.

-J

I wish it were just over $3,000 as well. But also know what it costs to try to get an equivalent rifle delivered from a legit gunsmith- I started trying to find smiths nearly 20 years ago that would, and could do it. When I did, I paid heavily for it. So much so, that is why I started having to learn it all myself- I couldn’t afford it.

The baseline is that it isn’t “$1,200 more than their other rifle”, it’s “for sub $4,00, you are getting a rifle that is unlike any other from any manufacture, and that has more hands on time actually making sure it functions than all but probably D’Arcy Echols, and Rigby. That is not to say the Marshall is the same as those; but it is very different than paying $3,000-$6000 for screwed together parts bag that can be bought from any online store.

At the end of the day- the rifle simply can not be replicated for $4,000- if at all.

 

[Schmo]

I’ll have to echo @Formidilosus. Currently, where would you source another true CRF action that’s not an R700 pattern? Buy a pre ‘64 for a donor action, then part it out. Or an MRC Junction and part it out. The accuracy guarantee. Not many smiths would test a rifle for 10 rounds to make sure it’s under 1.5”. These don’t ship unless they do. Who’s gonna time the action? Who’s gonna cycle 100 rounds?

As far as I know, this is the only Mauser type CRF non R700 complete package on the market, that is done properly, anywhere near its price point. When I get the funds, I just might buy one.

 

[9.3koolaid]

I’ll have to echo @Formidilosus. Currently, where would you source another true CRF action that’s not an R700 pattern? Buy a pre ‘64 for a donor action, then part it out. Or an MRC Junction and part it out. The accuracy guarantee. Not many smiths would test a rifle for 10 rounds to make sure it’s under 1.5”. These don’t ship unless they do. Who’s gonna time the action? Who’s gonna cycle 100 rounds?

As far as I know, this is the only Mauser type CRF non R700 complete package on the market, that is done properly, anywhere near its price point. When I get the funds, I just might buy one.

Winchester? Kimber? Ruger?

 

[Formidilosus]

Winchester? Kimber? Ruger?

None of those are consistently timed correctly- especially Ruger. None have AICS bottom metal available- unless you count the PT&G for the SA winchesters… good luck with that. None of them can take prefits.

 

[Schmo]

And none are assembled like the MRC, tested like the MRC, or come with as functional of a stock as the MRC.

 

[9.3koolaid]

None of those are consistently timed correctly- especially Ruger. None have AICS bottom metal available- unless you count the PT&G for the SA winchesters… good luck with that. None of them can take prefits.

Sure! But wouldn't this new UM bottom metal work in a model 70? I'm not the target buyer for this rifle, just seems like you could acheive a close approximation for about half the price starting with a model 70.

 

[Formidilosus]

Sure! But wouldn't this new UM bottom metal work in a model 70?

Yes, with some mods. But- how are you getting it? Right now it is for MRC. Though I’m sure in time it will be offered.

 

[Castle Rock]

The action is described as having a Mauser style internal C ring breaching collar, this makes it a far better and safer action than any model 70, as well as allowing the use of prefit barrels

 

[khuber84]

I’d say that those steps are pretty minor league for a lot of us WKR’s, and in light of that, not worth paying someone else to do.. especially when you know that if any of us buy the rifle we’re going to take it apart to verify that these things were actually done right from the factory anyway

The MRC standalone action appeals to me a lot more than the complete rifle.

However there’s no denying the benefit to the industry as a whole, as well as the value of a properly set up rifle to the majority of hunters that are not as familiar with how this should be done.

I'd gladly take a MRC 2022 action and trigger group to try out, I'd handle the rest the rifles construction and building process on my end. I've asked if this will ever be an option,and MRC says it will once they get open time on their action mill that isn't dedicated to full builds. So fingers crossed I'll have my own crf model 70 clone by the end of 2025 to compare to my 700 clones. See if this is truly the greatest hunting rifle available in today's market.

 

[huntnful]

I know $3850 seems expensive for sure. But on my puzzle piece guns that get put together with care, I’m in for like $4000 or more in just parts. And I absolutely end up having to mess with, or even heavily modify mags to get them to feed. Hell I spent like 2 hours modifying two Hawkins Hunter mags to feed 300 Norma properly. And I’ve ruined a few mags as well. I think getting a LEGIT ready to go rifle is a great thing. I think we overlook it here, because we’re used to making things work and just consider it part of the process. And I’m not sure the general public will even appreciate the concept, because half of them don’t even know their actions screws are loose at the moment lol. But for someone interested in that platform, the chambers being offered, and it being properly put together with a REAL function test, $4000 still seems fair IMO.

I also genuinely have to take care of my guns on hunts because the components I chose. But I like them, and it’s okay with me.

Anyone that understands and appreciates what the Marshall concept is, I think would be pleased to get that rifle in their hands and just go kill shit without any qualms.

 

[NSI]

Let’s go through each point and take them at face value.

Quite frankly, it seems part of this consternation with the price, is people have no baseline for what a proper CRF rifle costs. Comparing any properly timed and built CRF to a R700 based “custom” is apples and oranges.

Let start with the first question- if you want what this rifles offers, how are you replicating it? And how are you getting it for less money?






You believe that is that is happening- load mags and cycle? And is that how long it takes? What gunsmith that actually understands how CRF needs to work and be timed will you go to for them to fully function test it? How much will they charge?
Keep in mind, the only one that function tests every rifle and is watching and checking every part of the cycle of operation… starts at $15,000 for synthetic stocked rifle. And he doesn’t do 100 rounds and multiple magazines.




Ok. What does your gunsmith charge to fire a 10 round group and guarantee it’s under 1.5 MOA with common/factory ammo? The last one I new that would do it, charged $450 extra a barrel/rifle.





Yes. Two magazines that 100% work from your rifle.






Stock yes, bottom metal no. They have to purchase the bottom metal, and it isn’t all that cheap- to develop or produce. It is a very well designed piece.




I couldn’t disagree more. Quite frankly most don’t have enough money for what it would cost to replicate this rifle using a gunsmith.

CRF that uses prefits- OK, buy another MRC for $2,595. Scrap everything but the action, trigger, and bolt. Get a new barrel fitted- $600-$900. Get a gunsmith or machine shop to make a one off bolt handle and knob (about $300 last I found), and a one off AICS bottom metal (very, very low end, $500). If you want a ROKStok at this point for it, either buy the mold and get a company to copy it ($50,000 to $100,000) or pay $1,800 for a wood stock. $130’ish for two mags. Then on the low end, $400 to fully and completely through every part of the cycle of operation- not just with the 2x mags the tokens coming with, but a stack of random mags too- if you can even find a gunsmith that will do it, and knows what they are doing.




I wish it were just over $3,000 as well. But also know what it costs to try to get an equivalent rifle delivered from a legit gunsmith- I started trying to find smiths nearly 20 years ago that would, and could do it. When I did, I paid heavily for it. So much so, that is why I started having to learn it all myself- I couldn’t afford it.

The baseline is that it isn’t “$1,200 more than their other rifle”, it’s “for sub $4,00, you are getting a rifle that is unlike any other from any manufacture, and that has more hands on time actually making sure it functions than all but probably D’Arcy Echols, and Rigby. That is not to say the Marshall is the same as those; but it is very different than paying $3,000-$6000 for screwed together parts bag that can be bought from any online store.

At the end of the day- the rifle simply can not be replicated for $4,000- if at all.

Form,
It feels like you were taking some frustration out here and missed my message. None of this is about cost or feasibility to replicate.

The message is not that the Marshall and its associated labor are not a good value at 4k. I explicitly declined to make a value judgement. The message is that the glaring nature of the price delta between the Junction and Marshall are poor optics for MRC. Now, I didn't understand the costs to MRC associated with the bottom metal and mags. That does close the gap somewhat.

At the end of the day- the rifle simply can not be replicated for $4,000- if at all.

That's probably true in a world where MRC doesn't have any autonomy to choose chambering and barrel lengths (free decisions), and UM refuses to sell this BM system or an m70 Rokstok. However, replication of the CRF rifle is less interesting than replication of the amount of capability that is necessary for poor-weather Western killing. The latter is replicated in push-feed for $1250 and an hour of labor as you have proven over years and hundreds of animals. But let's move past that, because CRF is indeed an understandable "want" for many of us (remember, I want a wood rokstok'd AICS-fed 308 MRC as much as anyone).

What these feeding and accuracy guarantees may cost to achieve elsewhere is not germane. Everything you've said is true, and some of those true things are absurd ($450 for a 10 round group). The fact remains that the MRC Junction has a public price with margin built in. The unstated implication of building in nearly a grand of priced-in labor for feed testing and group shooting is that the Junctions being sent out the door are not QC'd close to adequately. Given what you received a year ago, that may be the case. Nevertheless, it produces the optics issue we're seeing play out here. I hope I'm wrong, I hope these sell like hotcakes, and I hope MRC will sell barreled actions soon.

Best,
-J

 

[Schmo]

@NSI, I don’t necessarily think it’s bad optics. Maybe the Junction doesn’t have enough QC. However, I don’t think you’re seeing what we’re getting at. The Junction doesn’t have an optimally designed carbon fiber stock. The Junction doesn’t have an AICS bottom metal, and thus no mags, not to mention tuned mags. It isn’t QC’d nearly as thoroughly. Only one guy assembles the Marshall, thus adding cost. The Junction doesn’t come with a Pro brake. The Junction isn’t tested for 10 round group. The Junction isn’t cycled for 100 rounds. All of that easily adds up to the difference in cost.

 

[HighUintas]

I truly hope these Marshall rifles stick around long term and don't go the way of the Barrett fieldcraft. People didn't realize how awesome those were until it was too late.

 

[Jon Boy]

I believe unknown charges around the same price for a tikka build with everything being the same. Seems fair to me. Sure you can’t pick what ever cartridge you want, but you also can’t buy it off the shelf and have to wait for it. I’m intrigued by it for sure. I love my crf kimber that shoots like dog shit. I’ll stick to my tikkas for now but if I get another crf/woodstock urge I’ll go this route.