The Shoot2hunt Podcast

[khuber84]

Ah so your hesitation is the price… I understand that.

Thats full on custom gun money for a production class rifle. I just built a carbon titanium 6cm for the same money.

a lot of Forms time

Is every S2H rifle going through forms garage and gun range trips for his S2H stamp of approval and blessing before it ships off to the happy Rokslide after their purchase? Or does it end up in a warehouse somewhere before going to its forever home?

 

[Formidilosus]

Thats full on custom gun money for a production class rifle. I just built a carbon titanium 6cm for the same money.

None of us picked the price, and I can guarantee you UM nor S2H is making much on them.
I’ll also bet you a crisp $10 bill that not one of your “customs” was assembled or function tested like these rifles are, nor did they come with 2x mags that they were function tested with, nor were they shot for a 10 round group before you got it.

“Production class”? What exactly do you believe is “better”- not difffenrt, actually better on the common “custom” rifles being made now? Are the actions more true? Are they more reliable? Are the barrels more accurate? Are the triggers better? Are the triggers more reliable?

The whole “custom” world is bag of BS. “Custom” rifles are nothing but screwed together machined legos with some paint thrown on.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Thats full on custom gun money for a production class rifle. I just built a carbon titanium 6cm for the same money.

Carbon barrel and titanium action? Gross.

 

[khuber84]

None of us picked the price, and I can guarantee you UM nor S2H is making much on them.
I’ll also bet you a crisp $10 bill that not one of your “customs” was assembled or function tested like these rifles are, nor did they come with 2x mags that they were function tested with, nor were they shot for a 10 round group before you got it.

“Production class”? What exactly do you believe is “better”- not difffenrt, actually better on the common “custom” rifles being made now? Are the actions more true? Are they more reliable? Are the barrels more accurate? Are the triggers better? Are the triggers more reliable?

The whole “custom” world is bag of BS. “Custom” rifles are nothing but screwed together machined legos with some paint thrown on.

I don't need a 10 shot group with a barrel that comes from my smith. He's cut over 40 bbls for me in the last 6 years. I have developed expectations due to their performance and I'm not let down. The last 6cm prefit he spun, put on an origin and it printed 10 shots of 108 eldm 6cm factory at 5/8" shots 6-15 from the rifle. I shoot factory rarely. All my rifles have run perfectly from accurate, mdt, hawkins aics mags, some from AW. Once mag lips are tuned, I've never had to retune to get them right in another action. I have prob 25 mags to cover all my rem700 short action clone aics needs, there hasn't been a single one that's given me much a problem yet.

Here's what a custom gets me personally:
Infinite options of material, finish, configuration imaginable.

But the most important when I go to Manzella Precision, Alex Wheeler or Dallas Lane, I get impeccable machine work, 0.0000 dial ins at chamber and muzzle, 100% perfectly stress free bed jobs, vetted thorough assembly and fitment. These are the things a cannot and will not trust to a man thats getting paid hourly to complete properly or to perfection. A one man gunsmiths entire operation rides on his reputation. That reputation is made and broken by his own hands. Observed plenty of high dollar rifles I've been around with shit bedding, crooked chambers, because it was Friday at the Proof factory? Or a hung over Monday morning at Alamo Precision Arms? Or just a plain ol random luck of draw Christensen?

I'm not saying my customs are better than the S2H colab. My rokstock 6cm is a Zermatt Ti3 with a 20in lt palma ace. I know the BnA trigger installed isn't Siberia friendly, it'll 100% fail before the M70 trigger. It does however feed out of every steel, aluminum or plastic aics mag I've tried. It shoots fantastic. Will it do that with an overnight coat of snow stuffed in? Idk prob not, haven't tested nor put it in the situation to see if it fails me.

Are aftermarket barrels a superior product to factory rifle barrels, yes absolutely.

Triggers? When the geissele super700 becomes available again I'll put one on every rifle I owm, at that point I'll at least be on par with the best triggers available.

@Imac45acp what are the differences between a S2H colab rifle VS your highline? I I'm quite certain a McMillan is more expensive than the rokstok. The barrels should be the same exact finish and quality, yes? The detail to machining and bedding should be the same, yes? I want to know what an extra $1300-1400 gets me besides a target and 2 mags.

Also, a question I've asked twice with no answer yet, is the starter thread on your actions in the same exact spot on every action? It'd have to be for this action to be prefit capable with the tenon extractor relief cut.

 

[Wiscgunner]

I don't think it is a bad price at all compared to what I run already.
$1300 Bighorn TL3 (DLC) w/ CRF
$350 Tubb T7T trigger
$295 Badger M5 Butterfly DBM
$845 for a s/s PVA barrel of my choice with black cerakote
$104 muzzle brake I don't need
$495 Rokstock
$200 2 color Cerakote
Total: $3589
Montana Michigan Rifle Company Marshall $3850

I would save $261 but have to assemble and bed the stock myself.

Sure makes me interested in one even if I can't get a 2-stage trigger for it.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't need a 10 shot group with a barrel that comes from my smith. He's cut over 40 bbls for me in the last 6 years. I have developed expectations due to their performance and I'm not let down. The last 6cm prefit he spun, put on an origin and it printed 10 shots of 108 eldm 6cm factory at 5/8" shots 6-15 from the rifle. I shoot factory rarely.

Ok- neat. Saying that you don’t want something, isn’t the same as saying “I could get it cheaper”. No you can’t. Or at least I haven’t found it.

All my rifles have run perfectly from accurate, mdt, hawkins aics mags, some from AW. Once mag lips are tuned, I've never had to retune to get them right in another action. I have prob 25 mags to cover all my rem700 short action clone aics needs, there hasn't been a single one that's given me much a problem yet.

Hold on- you’re saying that you had to spend man hours making things work correctly? Novel idea.

Here's what a custom gets me personally:
Infinite options of material, finish, configuration imaginable.

Neat. so you aren’t not interested in any rifle off the shelf? Why are you complaining about something you aren’t in the market for?

But the most important when I go to Manzella Precision, Alex Wheeler or Dallas Lane, I get impeccable machine work, 0.0000 dial ins at

.0000 dial in’s huh? What does that get you exactly?

chamber and muzzle, 100% perfectly stress free bed jobs, vetted thorough assembly and fitment.

Hold on- thoroughly vetted through assembly and fitment? You mean you pay for that? How many rounds are they function checking each rifle with?

These are the things a cannot and will not trust to a man thats getting paid hourly to complete properly or to perfection.

There is one person building and assembling the Marshall.

Any idea what those three smith would charge you to run 101 rounds through a CRF rifle and two mags, and check every aspect of feed, fire, extract, eject, feed? Do they even know how a proper CRF works and needs to be timed? How much would they charge to know (by shooting high shot groups) the exact rifle they are sending will shoot?

A one man gunsmiths entire operation rides on his reputation. That reputation is made and broken by his own hands. Observed plenty of high dollar rifles I've been around with shit bedding, crooked chambers, because it was Friday at the Proof factory? Or a hung over Monday morning at Alamo Precision Arms? Or just a plain ol random luck of draw Christensen?

Ironically I’ve used rifles from 2 of those 3 you mentioned, and a whole lot more- that had issues. GAP, APA, LRI, UM, etc, etc.

Probably because they didn’t function test them and shoot them before they left the shop.

I'm not saying my customs are better than the S2H colab. My rokstock 6cm is a Zermatt Ti3 with a 20in lt palma ace. I know the BnA trigger installed isn't Siberia friendly, it'll 100% fail before the M70 trigger. It does however feed out of every steel, aluminum or plastic aics mag I've tried. It shoots fantastic. Will it do that with an overnight coat of snow stuffed in? Idk prob not, haven't tested nor put it in the situation to see if it fails me.

So your customs aren’t better? Then what are you posting about?

To be candid- there isn’t a single R700 based “custom” action or trigger in the world that is a better field rifle than the Marshall- it doesn’t matter who assembled it. By every single objective measure of function the MRC Marhall is better- but you’re upset about the cost?
I would hope a that a barrel, action, and stock that can be bought off the internet and assembled on a tailgate with no proofing and function work- would be cheaper than a rifle that has actual hands on man hours into ensuring that it functions properly.


You may not value what is being done, but it is also disingenuous to say that your “customs” are getting more work put into them. The actions are no more precise, the barrels don’t shoot better from what I’ve seen, the triggers are not as reliable, etc.

Are aftermarket barrels a superior product to factory rifle barrels, yes absolutely.

What is the definition of “aftermarket” and “factory” barrels? What is the functional difference?
From what I’ve seen so far, the MRC barrels fall right in line with just about any “aftermarket” barrel on average. The test rifle’s last 10 round group with Hornady factory ammo was .8 MOA- after 10,000 rounds had been fired through it. I have Bartlien, Brux, Hawk Hill, Lilia, Proof, etc, etc. None of them shoot the same ammo any better.

Triggers? When the geissele super700 becomes available again I'll put one on every rifle I owm, at that point I'll at least be on par with the best triggers available.

Yeah no. The Super 700 is the best R700 trigger on the market- it is no where near what a MRC trigger is in reliability. Let alone the actions that have to go along with that trigger.




@khuber84

Let’s start with the first step: You cannot replicate the MRC Marshall. Full stop. Being that you can’t duplicate it, comparing it to something else entirely isn’t being intellectually honest.
If you don’t like those things, or don’t want those things- well that’s different, don’t buy it. Not one person will try to convince you to buy it. But don’t act like it is some Christianson Arms, or some Lego R700 rifle.

 

[rbutcher1234]

lol this is ridiculous. It’s not a custom by your definition so don’t buy it. Why did the custom rifle fan feel the need to argue about this? It doesn’t fit your niche so who cares if someone offers this product?

You’re doing the equivalent of my going “If I try really hard to ignore the weight, my AIAT is the exact same as the Marshall!”

It’s literally not. I cannot ignore the mechanical differences of things until I am left with only the positives and then declare victory.

Is the Marshall better than my AIAT? Seems like yes if certain things are prioritized. Also no, if other things are prioritized.

If something doesn’t work for you, probably best not to try and convince everyone else that their different set of criteria is wrong.

Edit: yes I am a psycho who hunts with an AT in a backpack. I also do it with a 223. Sometimes I bring a 300NM. You don’t have to optimize everything all the time, sometimes you do stuff just because it’s cool, fun, or tickles an emotional itch. All the reason you need is “yeah I think it’s badass” and then just recognize what the comprises are if you choose something.

 

[swavescatter]

Hold on- you’re saying that you had to spend man hours making things work correctly? Novel idea.

Serious question, no snark: Is the ultimate plan to sell a complete package with the new UM scope, ammo and (maybe) suppressor with the Marshall?

This quote sums up what I'm seeing as the selling point - everything is turn-key. That's a Gunwerks type model in my head, and they usually sell complete packages with DOPE and ammo included.

The Marshall is out of my league price-wise, but I applaud American companies doing novel things.

 

[Bluumoon]

Serious question, no snark: Is the ultimate plan to sell a complete package with the new UM scope, ammo and (maybe) suppressor with the Marshall?

This quote sums up what I'm seeing as the selling point - everything is turn-key. That's a Gunwerks type model in my head, and they usually sell complete packages with DOPE and ammo included.

The Marshall is out of my league price-wise, but I applaud American companies doing novel things.

The goal has been stated very clearly multiple times. Make, actually talk others into making, reliable products that do the job the way it should be done, no excuses.

By convincing “us” we want sh*t that works, leverage us into pressuring the industry to do what they should be doing all along.

 

[Formidilosus]

Serious question, no snark: Is the ultimate plan to sell a complete package with the new UM scope,
ammo and (maybe) suppressor with the Marshall?

I don’t believe so. At least no one has said anything like it that I’ve heard. I mean if someone wanted that and were willing to pay UM to get it- sure, I guess.

This quote sums up what I'm seeing as the selling point - everything is turn-key. That's a Gunwerks type model in my head, and they usually sell complete packages with DOPE and ammo included.

That’s an interesting thought and discussion point. I am not ok with the “1,000 yards out of the box” garbage, and I don’t think anyone else is either- hence we’re doing week long, very intense training courses just to shoot 600 yards…. However, the vast majority of shooters would be a lot better off with a complete system done correctly, that they didn’t touch. It is not a stretch at all to say that the vast majority of people we hunt/shoot with instantly become more lethal when they take and use one of our personal rifles. All the BS, all the fluff, all the potential flaws, errors, and variability are taken out of the equation.

The Marshall is out of my league price-wise, but I applaud American companies doing novel things.

That’s mostly where I am. Yes, I would and will pay for one for my personel use; more than that though, to me it is that a company finally listened and is doing what many believe they all should be doing.

 

[Formidilosus]

The goal has been stated very clearly multiple times. Make, actually talk others into making, reliable products that do the job the way it should be done, no excuses.

By convincing “us” we want sh*t that works, leverage us into pressuring the industry to do what they should be doing all along.

Haha. You don’t know me!

 

[Bluumoon]

Haha. You don’t know me!

Fair. Perhaps I’ve miss interpreted, likely projecting.

I want stuff that works like my 100 year old used daily cast iron skillets, 20 year old Toyotas, Grandmothers 50yo American made washing machine and stove. Simple/reliable stuff that I can pass down.

 

[Formidilosus]

lol this is ridiculous. It’s not a custom by your definition so don’t buy it. Why did the custom rifle fan feel the need to argue about this? It doesn’t fit your niche so who cares if someone offers this product?

You’re doing the equivalent of my going “If I try really hard to ignore the weight, my AIAT is the exact same as the Marshall!”

It’s literally not. I cannot ignore the mechanical differences of things until I am left with only the positives and then declare victory.

Is the Marshall better than my AIAT? Seems like yes if certain things are prioritized. Also no, if other things are prioritized.

If something doesn’t work for you, probably best not to try and convince everyone else that their different set of criteria is wrong.

I believe that to be a near perfect analogy. All through the early and mid 2,000’s people ranted and complained that their -insert whatever custom- rifle was “just as reliable and good as an AIAW”. They couldn’t understand why they cost so much more- even when their rifles were going down, malfunctioning and failing- still couldn’t grasp it. Just like the arguments being made about this rifle

One of the points/goals I stated repeatedly in the beginning of this project, is that we need the AI of hunting rifles. I won’t say that it is that, yet. Maybe it turns out to be that- and I do think the probability is high that it will; but it certainly is closer to a hunting version of the AIAW system than anything else made in America.

As an aside, kind of funny that the Marshall is functionally a modern version of the rifle that almost beat AI in the British sniper trials- the Parker Hale M85.

 

[Formidilosus]

Fair. Perhaps I’ve miss interpreted, likely projecting.

Haha. No- that was spot on.

I want stuff that works like my 100 year old used daily cast iron skillets, 20 year old Toyotas, Grandmothers 50yo American made washing machine and stove. Simple/reliable stuff that I can pass down.

Me too. Find a Leupold Mark 4 fixed 6x. You will like it.

 

[9.3koolaid]

I believe that to be a near perfect analogy. All through the early and mid 2,000’s people ranted and complained that their -insert whatever custom- rifle was “just as reliable and good as an AIAW”. They couldn’t understand why they cost so much more- even when their rifles were going down, malfunctioning and failing- still couldn’t grasp it. Just like the arguments being made about this rifle

One of the points/goals I stated repeatedly in the beginning of this project, is that we need the AI of hunting rifles. I won’t say that it is that, yet. Maybe it turns out to be that- and I do think the probability is high that it will; but it certainly is closer to a hunting version of the AIAW system than anything else made in America.

As an aside, kind of funny that the Marshall is functionally a modern version of the rifle that almost beat AI in the British sniper trials- the Parker Hale M85.

Semi related, why not choose aw mags?

 

[Formidilosus]

Semi related, why not choose aw mags?

Common availability.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Serious question, no snark: Is the ultimate plan to sell a complete package with the new UM scope, ammo and (maybe) suppressor with the Marshall?

This quote sums up what I'm seeing as the selling point - everything is turn-key. That's a Gunwerks type model in my head, and they usually sell complete packages with DOPE and ammo included.

The Marshall is out of my league price-wise, but I applaud American companies doing novel things.

No its not the plan.

 

[Ryan Avery]

The fit, function, and accuracy of a factory Tikkas are better than those of most custom 700 rifles I've built. The MRC should be the minimum standard for all “custom” rifles.

Barrel runout is a funny thing. Red Rock Precision built me a 28 Nosler. Curt said the barrel I gave him had terrible runout, but it was remarkably accurate.

 

[HighUintas]

Don't know yet. There will be a testing thread.

Ryan and @Formidilosus , it would be great if your testing with the high quality test equipment UM has includes shooting from short barrel cartridges that we here at rokslide like, rather than the 556 AR, 308, and 300wm that is most commonly used.

I'd love to see this suppressor be sub 140dB on a 16" 6UM, 243, 6cm, etc. At only 4" added length and 10oz .... I think you'd sell a boatload of them.

 

[id_jon]

Common availability.

Is the action cut for aw mags? And would they affect how it feeds?