The resident short game. Long term consequences?

[tdhanses]

States certainly benefit from NR dollars, some way more than others, but I don't think that this disenfranchisement will have a significant impact in DFG/DNR funding over time. States have levers they can manipulate to balance funding in terms of increasing R/NR license/tag fees, petitioning for general fund dollars, or even increasing NR opportunity if all else fails. Not rocket science.

I would disagree that wildlife can be managed without hunting. While there may be areas in the west where that is the case, that is the exception and not the norm. If predators were to increase to a level that replaced recreational hunting, there would be downstream impacts that would not be tenable (e.g. livestock losses, human/pet attacks) which would have economic and political implications. Add to that demand for tags, especially in the west, has never been higher.

What does have potential to improve the situation is higher game numbers. While that is challenging in many areas due to federal oversight on predator management and environmental factors, what can be done is to protect and improve habitat and augment populations through translocation. It obviously rubbed me the wrong way that the OP's first action was to eliminate his funding of groups who can make these sorts of projects happen. IMO it is short-sighted and frankly I don't think much of people who only contribute to causes if they see direct, tangible personal benefits that will result. Here in CA we have been adding water sources on military bases that will very likely never be hunted to benefit desert bighorn sheep. Why? Because it is the right thing to do for the resource, regardless of whether that improves one's ability to draw a desert sheep tag in their lifetime. But over decades it just might.

The whole post struck me like crying over yet-to-be spilled milk.

Or is it lack of foresight, guess we’ll know in 20-30 years.

And fyi… I’ve helped raise over $1million for wildlife, hope you’ve done the same but i’m close to being done and just buying what i want till i can’t hunt, wildlife will be ok, we have plenty of Disney fans and camera only shooters.

While the west holds the most exciting hunting it also has the smallest resident population, how long till that doesn’t matter and the majority control what happens on public lands? Alienate all the NR in population centers and we’ll findout, it isn’t the sky is falling, just being realistic and not looking at the past.

How did it go for the dentist that shot a lion, Cecil was the lions name right? Obviously meaning keep pushing people away from hunting and see how many provide support for hunting, nationwide hunters represent maybe 10% of the population, in the west maybe 1%. In the end it’ll be a hobby for individuals that can pay to play, resident or not.

Also you’ll find the only likes you get are from residents of western state that don’t see the big picture or NR sucking up to western residents.

 

[Super tag]

Sorry Super tag, it’s not too late to move there. Idaho is one of the states that has way better res benefits than non res. It’s definitely a state people from the west coast look to move to.

Also very true, you can move here for sure, but the hunting isn’t what it was even five years ago, that’s all I meant, it is too late. Idaho will have to change the resident benefits before long, the writing is on the wall.

 

[tdhanses]

Also very true, you can move here for sure, but the hunting isn’t what it was even five years ago, that’s all I meant, it is too late. Idaho will have to change the resident benefits before long, the writing is on the wall.

For you it isn’t, for others it’s much better.

 

[dirtytough]

I don't disagree but our energy is pointed in the wrong direction. States will absolutely go to 90/10 eventually. If non-residents decide that is the straw that will cut off their funding to the organizations that work to preserve opportunities, improve habitat, and ultimately help sustain huntable populations, we will see a faster decline in overall opportunities imo.

After every state is 90/10, which state will go 95/5 first? Then 98/2? Oregon already is beyond 90/10. And I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying I believe it’s short sighted. Is it wrong to shift donations from wildlife to something you feel is as important, but isn’t paying for a playground for ungrateful people?

Making an empty threat about not getting drunk and spending 500 bucks with your buddies at an RMEF function really dosent hold water. Sorry but that's not going to sink the boat.

You comapin about my short sightedness than call to pull the plug on conservation because WY went 90/10 on tags you were never going to draw anyway. Get real. Don't act like you are the only thing standing in the way of elk being on the landscape. Your resolve is paper thin. Read this thread and tell me that's not the case.

I don’t drink. If I did who knows what I would post Just me not donating is nothing. I’m sure I’m the only person that has quit, right?

Posters are focusing on one of the most recent non res losses. It’s not just a one time loss. It is happening with more and more regularity across the western states.

That unfairness is a two way street. This whole uproar is over 90/10 for the big five. Those odds really didnt change much for you or I. They are in line with th e vast majority of western states. The wilderness law has been around from like the 1970s I think. I understand that you dont like the trajectory. It is a slippery slope like all things are, but I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water, but that's your choice. There will be bigger things coming that have a direct impact on NRs not just a precieved impact. When it's time to discuss those, folks that have called state game on federal land welfare and that want to boycott organizations like the RMEF, I just dont see enough middle ground.

Again it isn’t about the most recent 90/10 and it is. That’s just one more piece of the non res pie getting taken away. How small does a piece of pie have to be before it’s not worth scraping the pie plate. Instead just pick up that plate, toss it in the dishwasher, and find a different dessert.

Also, for some reason my memory is getting jogged. I could swear I have read on the net (so it must be true) that non res should figure their application fees are a donation for conservation. Maybe even strut around and pay ourselves on the back? I seem to remember that’s how it was presented/typed?

Summation of the OP: I want more access to resources that I am not willing to support financially.

Exactly. That would have saved me a lot of time.

Any person can enjoy our public lands at any time. Hiking, biking, quads ,snowmobiles, almost anything your heart desires, year round. What tag allocation number do you feel your entitled to?
If you are going to stop donating or participating in conservation organizations because you don't feel like you are getting enough out of it, where is your heart then? It doesn't sound like it's with the animals and their habitat.

I don’t feel entitled to any tags. I do feel residents are short sighted. Make it 100/0. It will just speed up hunter migration to the resident hunting paradises. Which will speed up loss of winter range.

I went to a banquet last night the wifey wanted to attend. We ended up donating $850 total. Maybe it’s wrong but I feel better about donating that $850 to something that absolutely will not benefit me, than WSF, RMEF, MDF, etc. Even though that $850 towards one of those places might benefit me in some way. I’m personally tired funding this play ground in multiple different ways and being told we should be happy with any little crumb we get. And if that crumb gets in half you aren’t disappointed. You are entitled, ungrateful, etc.

Plus according to the net aren’t our non res app fees donations?

Could be. Was the point that, in the face of diminishing wildlife habitat, the best course of action is to stop funding non-profit wildlife organizations which exist in part to protect and enhance wildlife habitat? That was another theme I picked up on.

If they are trying to protect wildlife habitat, maybe they should tell residents to quit making the non res pie so small non res hunters move to the resident hunting paradises? I’m sure more and more residents aren’t helping the habitat.



It’s funny how it’s Our wildlife. Until it comes to conservation orgs. Then “we are all in this together”.

 

[Super tag]

How does residents getting more tags result in less herd deletion?

Less tags is the answer there, not changing who gets them.

If anything I'd expect a lower success rate from non residents who don't know the area.

There won’t be more tags as the quotas are the same. Limited entry tags would just go to residents, not non res.

Changing who gets the tag is the answer, that’s the whole point. The number of tags won’t change.

The success rate probably wouldn’t be affected much because the limited entry tags are great tags and the advantage goes to the hunter In most cases, Late season, early, trophy units etc. I think the success rate would be unchanged for the most part.

 

[Cowbell]

tdhanses you seem enamored with our OTC General licenses in Wyoming, how about we give NRs all the General licenses they want and keep the LQ for Rs? General areas and LQ are not the same hunting for the most part. Residents want more access to the better licenses, not going to try and hide that.

Yes I would love to hunt region G mule Deer and have that general elk tag every year. I would give up all other LE options for that...

 

[Cowbell]

Summation of the OP: I want more access to resources that I am not willing to support financially.

Reading Comprehension is becoming a rare trait to find. More accurately summed: I am no longer willing to financially support resources that I no longer have access to...

 

[Cowbell]

Any person can enjoy our public lands at any time. Hiking, biking, quads ,snowmobiles, almost anything your heart desires, year round. What tag allocation number do you feel your entitled to?
If you are going to stop donating or participating in conservation organizations because you don't feel like you are getting enough out of it, where is your heart then? It doesn't sound like it's with the animals and their habitat.

Why would you support resources you can't enjoy? That money would be better invested in private land in that same state or your own to where you actually have access to resources. It's not about where your heart is. It's about being logical.

 

[Customweld]

Why would you support resources you can't enjoy? That money would be better invested in private land in that same state or your own to where you actually have access to resources. It's not about where your heart is. It's about being logical.

So to hell with deer and elk if you can’t hunt them in another state. Got it.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

There's currently a bill in both houses of Congress that will have direct effect on all the issues that the OP mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

 

[CorbLand]

After every state is 90/10, which state will go 95/5 first? Then 98/2? Oregon already is beyond 90/10. And I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m saying I believe it’s short sighted. Is it wrong to shift donations from wildlife to something you feel is as important, but isn’t paying for a playground for ungrateful people?

I don’t drink. If I did who knows what I would post Just me not donating is nothing. I’m sure I’m the only person that has quit, right?

Posters are focusing on one of the most recent non res losses. It’s not just a one time loss. It is happening with more and more regularity across the western states.

Again it isn’t about the most recent 90/10 and it is. That’s just one more piece of the non res pie getting taken away. How small does a piece of pie have to be before it’s not worth scraping the pie plate. Instead just pick up that plate, toss it in the dishwasher, and find a different dessert.

Also, for some reason my memory is getting jogged. I could swear I have read on the net (so it must be true) that non res should figure their application fees are a donation for conservation. Maybe even strut around and pay ourselves on the back? I seem to remember that’s how it was presented/typed?

Exactly. That would have saved me a lot of time.

I don’t feel entitled to any tags. I do feel residents are short sighted. Make it 100/0. It will just speed up hunter migration to the resident hunting paradises. Which will speed up loss of winter range.

I went to a banquet last night the wifey wanted to attend. We ended up donating $850 total. Maybe it’s wrong but I feel better about donating that $850 to something that absolutely will not benefit me, than WSF, RMEF, MDF, etc. Even though that $850 towards one of those places might benefit me in some way. I’m personally tired funding this play ground in multiple different ways and being told we should be happy with any little crumb we get. And if that crumb gets in half you aren’t disappointed. You are entitled, ungrateful, etc.

Plus according to the net aren’t our non res app fees donations?

If they are trying to protect wildlife habitat, maybe they should tell residents to quit making the non res pie so small non res hunters move to the resident hunting paradises? I’m sure more and more residents aren’t helping the habitat.



It’s funny how it’s Our wildlife. Until it comes to conservation orgs. Then “we are all in this together”.

I am just throwing this out there. If you have the financial ability to drop 850 bucks at a banquet, you can hunt the West every year without a doubt.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

117th Congress HR2773

 

[Customweld]

Agreed- there seems to be confusion on this thread about everyone owning public land(true) and the state controlling the wildlife. All us citizens own the public land and can go to Wyoming or any other state and hike or camp, atv, whatever for free at anytime. Just because you can’t draw a tag every year doesn’t mean you don’t have equal access to public land. I have contributed to rmef for 30 plus years. I know of zero projects they have ever done in my area of Idaho and I know for certain they have done nothing in my hunting area. Over that time they have reintroduced elk to Kentucky, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and they are successful enough to have seasons in all those states. I will never hunt there most likely ( I have put in for Kentucky draw ). I don’t care that I won’t see or shoot those elk I feel my support dollars have been well spent. If all you care about is being able to kill the elk yourself you are in conservation for the wrong reason in my opinion. Someone posted that elk on public land is welfare!? Wtf. The fact that we all own public land has nothing to do with tag allocation. Everyone can use public land equally resident or non resident. Tag sales fund the state’s wildlife management. I seen a few posts where people are a little confused.

Well said. I volunteer countless hours planting brush after fires, rolling up unused barbed wire fences and feeding when conditions require it. I haven’t hunted a general mule deer tag in about 10 years. I love seeing those grey ghosts and if I can give some back to them, I will. I may never hunt another general otc muley and that’s ok, but I can say that I’ve genuinely helped them as much as I could.

 

[CorbLand]

You are correct but i dont think that was his point.

I mean he did say that the money he spends at banquets isn’t worth it if he can’t hunt and how that money can be put towards tags…for 850 bucks, you can hunt a lot of states.

Regardless of tag allocation, for 850 OP could hunt one of the following states every year

Idaho
Utah
Colorado

 

[Bighorner]

I still don't know what oppertunity it is people feel they have lost. The random draw for a NR to hunt a Big Horn Sheep in area 5 this year was about 00.3% with the new changes that would go to 00.1%. Maybe if you are ahead of that group you have a legit concern. My oppertunity as a resident for that same tag was 3-4 times better at at just over 1%. So where is the guy who robbed you and which way did he go? Does that 00.2% hurt that bad, did you really think you were in the running? Did you maybe just realize how steep the odds where and now your pissed? I don't know what to tell you. 90/10 is not here for DEA, but based what happened over the 5 I would imagine it would be pretty ugly.

For all the we are the majority and we will get our pound of flesh, your kids wont be able to live in your state once all us rich folks show up for a couple tags, and I'll never support access or the RMEF again. Good on you. Take a stand for what you believe. If it means that much, do it. Put your money into guides, helios and tresspass. They need to eat too. The 90/10 for DEA is still up for discussion and the folks that are involved in the discussion aren't going to look at your side with a lot of sympathy with all the empty threats. You want more of the pie, maybe the solution is to raise prices until enough folks drop out to stop point creep? Sounds like a lot of you are pretty concerned about who you grace your dollars with. Personally think that's the wrong direction, but you all need that bigger slice and that's a pretty direct route to it. The game agencies need your dollars, theres no getting around that.

The fact is hunting is becoming an industry and you are a consumer. You are free to take your business else where, but there is a whole host of people out there wanting to make a buck by getting someone new to by some boots, a rifle and head out west. Maybe some of you fall into that category and you are now realizing you were sold something that wasn't as good as it sounded. I'm obviously wasting my time here to I will continue to show up at my local task force meeting and try to look at things reasonably and sustainably. I will probably even throw in a couple bucks for a cause that dosen't help me.

I wish you all luck.

 

[cacklercrazy]

There are different on opinions on these topics, but one thing is evident, sadly, the ship has sailed for hunting big game the way it used to be. Get used to it because even more change and resistance to non res hunting is coming.

I for one am really happy the non resident hunting regulations changed in Idaho. The same number of opportunities still exist, but now all of the pressure can’t be concentrated in just a few areas. I noticed a DRAMATIC impact last season, finally!!! We didn’t see 30 non resident outfits in every trail head, maybe a bit of exaggeration but just a bit.

I am an Idaho resident, basically retired, and have NEVER drawn a lmited entry deer or elk tag, I’ve been putting in my whole life to have an opportunity. I really don’t care to see any of our limited opportunities go to non residents. I would like to have that chance at least once In my life. i would also like to see my family have the opportunity, I’ve paid my taxes and supported our wildlife and habitat for many, many years, I don’t owe any non residents anything. This is where we live, our home, this IS “our game” it certainly doesn’t equally belong to a non resident, is that what your saying? If it is, then that’s a really dumb statement.

I have seen our hunting areas drastically affected by non resident hunting over the past decade, to the degree that my family as residents have had to completely change our game. Poor predator management, a few bad winters, drought, and the excessive amount of non resident hunters over the past six or seven years, our deer and elk herds are severely depleted, now we have to deal with the population growith and shift as well.

i don’t have any sympathy for the non resident hunters, it is what it is, stay home and focus on the hunting opportunities where you live. Don’t move here, it’s too late for that too.

The short game is to get residents more tags, totally agree, it’s about time. Maybe a rough attitude, but that’s where it is now. Reality.

I will say this im a non resident that hunts with my cousin from Idaho every year in your state. Last year I saw more hunters from Idaho breaking forest laws and regulations than ever. Every one of these where resident hunters. Also some of the least respectful hunters ever. When you come up on a dead-end road and someone else is already out there leave them alone. Don't just park your side by side on the road out in the open and start walking around making noise. Also the side by side wasn't even allowed back there and you got it they were residents again. Resident or not people like this don't deserve to hunt!

 

[Trap]

To me it’s the more you disenfranchise the NR and the less that continue to hunt the less likely the 1% of residents in the west will retain the overall right or pick up the lost funding. In reality wildlife can be managed without hunting as we see by declining populations and additional predation. These orgs that receive funding from many will lose favor to many as their hobbies shift, maybe they’ll move their donations to orgs that press for more utv trails on public as their new activity for annual vacations.

Who knows what the future holds but the long-term outlook as we see more and more groups disenfranchised doesn’t look great. So yes as more and more people stop hunting fewer and fewer will support the right as they won’t care, that doesn’t mean they don’t care about wildlife just means with no interest why step up for it.

The North American model of wildlife model is 100 percent based on wildlife management being funded from hunting. Look at the increase in deer and elk since it’s been implemented in the us. It’s the most successful model of wildlife management ever in any part of the world. 62 billion has been raised by hunting and fishing revenues and 60 percent of game departments nationwide are funded by hunters. No way any wildlife management happens without hunting. Everybody needs to quit trying to hunt the same small handful of western states. We have been sold a bill of goods by the influencers and tag draw services etc. We all jumped in with the promise of special giant bull and mule deer tags and the draw systems are BROKE. We need more hunters we just need less competing for the same limited resources in a small number of states. There are tons of otc opportunities that offer great hunting that you won’t see in Huntn fool magazine or anywhere else because they are otc and they can’t make money on that. There is so much hunting available outside of the few western states everyone is fighting over. Idaho couldn’t sell all their non resident tags after the wolf debacle and before we could manage wolves. The elk had declined enough and the economy sucked and we had a lot of unsold nr tags. so they sold the tags to residents at the non resident price. The residents bought the tags as second tags. If there are ever non resident tags available they all get purchased by residents at the non resident cost. Idaho doesn’t even need to sell tags to non residents to get that revenue from nr tags-residents will buy those tags at the higher price and have. For everyone moving out west for all the resident hunting opportunities that ship is about to sail. Before long I think Idaho will go resident draw. Btw the biggest a holes to non resident hunters are the brand new residents who recently were out of staters this is a fact and they want all the out of staters to know they are residents and you nr hunters need to get out. I notice this most with Washington transplants. Just an interesting observation I thought I would share lol

 

[Trap]

Come on guys it’s about the wildlife! We are supposed to just throw money at it even if we are completely disconnected with said resource.

Here you go, just cause you don’t get to shoot it dosnt mean it’s not important?

Grizzly Bear Foundation

Grizzly Bear Foundation is a registered Canadian charitable organization dedicated solely to the welfare of grizzly bears (Ursus arctos). Guided by science and Indigenous knowledge, we work collaboratively to support the conservation of grizzly bears through research, public education, and advocacy.

grizzlybearfoundation.com

I promise this is my only smart ass response for the day

I don’t mind supporting wildlife I can’t hunt but I want someone to be able to hunt it

 

[Trap]

I will say this im a non resident that hunts with my cousin from Idaho every year in your state. Last year I saw more hunters from Idaho breaking forest laws and regulations than ever. Every one of these where resident hunters. Also some of the least respectful hunters ever. When you come up on a dead-end road and someone else is already out there leave them alone. Don't just park your side by side on the road out in the open and start walking around making noise. Also the side by side wasn't even allowed back there and you got it they were residents again. Resident or not people like this don't deserve to hunt!

Those were obviously out of staters who just moved to Idaho. Even though they have obtained Idaho plates they’re still just out of staters just in disguise

 

[Trap]

I still don't know what oppertunity it is people feel they have lost. The random draw for a NR to hunt a Big Horn Sheep in area 5 this year was about 00.3% with the new changes that would go to 00.1%. If you are concerned about points theres about 1300 people with 22 points or more. It will take a couple decades to chew through that. Maybe if you are ahead of that group you have a legit concern. My oppertunity as a resident for that same tag was 3-4 times better at at just over 1%. So where is the guy who robbed you and which way did he go? Does that 00.2% hurt that bad, did you really think you were in the running? Did you maybe just realize how steep the odds where and now your pissed? I don't know what to tell you. 90/10 is not here for DEA, but based what happened over the 5 I would imagine it would be pretty ugly.

For all the we are the majority and we will get our pound of flesh, your kids wont be able to live in your state once all us rich folks show up for a couple tags, and I'll never support access or the RMEF again. Good on you. Take a stand for what you believe. If it means that much, do it. Put your money into guides, helios and tresspass. They need to eat too. The 90/10 for DEA is still up for discussion and the folks that are involved in the discussion aren't going to look at your side with a lot of sympathy with all the empty threats. You want more of the pie, maybe the solution is to raise prices until enough folks drop out to stop point creep? Sounds like a lot of you are pretty concerned about who you grace your dollars with. Personally think that's the wrong direction, but you all need that bigger slice and that's a pretty direct route to it. The game agencies need your dollars, theres no getting around that.

The fact is hunting is becoming an industry and you are a consumer. You are free to take your business else where, but there is a whole host of people out there wanting to make a buck by getting someone new to by some boots, a rifle and head out west. Maybe some of you fall into that category and you are now realizing you were sold something that wasn't as good as it sounded. I'm obviously wasting my time here to I will continue to show up at my local task force meeting and try to look at things reasonably and sustainably. I will probably even throw in a couple bucks for a cause that dosen't help me.

I wish you all luck.

Wait! My odds for sheep decreased 0.2% overnight? What the heck now I am pissed!! Ha ha. Everyone got sold on trying to hunt the same small number of western states. Now all the draw systems are broke and everyone wants to blame the states or the residents for not “sharing”. Everyone in the draws did it to themselves. I was part of the problem for a little while but I am bowing out for the most part. The sheep tags I understand throwing money away for almost no chance. If you want to hunt sheep it’s one of the few options the rest is just a racket for non residents. Free market you can participate in a broken system or you can find better opportunities elsewhere.