"The Myth of Preference Points"

[sndmn11]

So, wait... we’re now talking about just hunting OTC and not talking about points? Given the subject matter and subsequent posts, that’s a huge leap with regards to the application of logic. If that’s the case, then No one should be complaining since you can hunt small game in any state.

Elk has been brought up many times, I guess I could substitute Mule Deer in there and it would probably hold true still. OTC not required.

The point is, whether one chooses to "play the game" or not is purely up to them, it is not required to hunt. It takes less than time (in CO) than all have invested in this thread to find ways to hunt with no points.

 

[Billinsd]

So guys keep saying hunt a mid level unit if guys with Max points or close to Max points start dumping points in mid level units then now those units will creep for everybody below the Max point Holder..

That's not creep, that's a STAMPEDE.

There is no easy solution for this.

There's no easy way to predict, either.

 

[Billinsd]

The point is, whether one chooses to "play the game" or not is purely up to them, it is not required to hunt. It takes less than time (in CO) than all have invested in this thread to find ways to hunt with no points.

The point of the thread is that the point system is a bad idea for residents and on a tangent the point system for non residents is broken in that many will never draw premium hunts unless they start applying in their teens and 20s and that hurts hunter recruitment.

 

[Poser]

Elk has been brought up many times, I guess I could substitute Mule Deer in there and it would probably hold true still. OTC not required.

The point is, whether one chooses to "play the game" or not is purely up to them, it is not required to hunt. It takes less than time (in CO) than all have invested in this thread to find ways to hunt with no points.

What about sheep, or goats, or moose?
While I agree that points aren’t required to hunt, I don’t think that “just hunting what is available” is the point, or at least the spirit, of this post. I think we’re talking about access to premium or highly desirable but limited allotment type hunts in general, be it big horn sheep, trophy elk units or Coues deer.

Personally, I would just favor phasing out points. (Grandfathering in existing points) in favor of straight lottery. The whole idea of accumulating a bunch of points for years and years while I’m in my prime just to go into a pool to even be able to potentially draw for a hunt that’s going to take even longer by the time I get there because of how many people
Have the same or more points just seems absurd, therefore, I don’t participate in high point accumulation. If it’s more than 3 points, it ain’t worth it. That’s a choice that I’m fine with but that does not mean that I don’t think the system could be worked over in a way that’s better across the board.

 

[sndmn11]

The point of the thread is that the point system is a bad idea for residents and on a tangent the point system for non residents is broken in that many will never draw premium hunts unless they start applying in their teens and 20s and that hurts hunter recruitment.

I've never once heard someone say that they stopped hunting or decided to never start because they perceive they can't have a "premium" out of state hunt. I have however heard of "bad" hunts for folks who banked their points for decades and then took their turn.

If you took a 12yo hunter on a 20point tag and a no point tag, are those two numbers all that dictates a "premium" hunt? If they shot a bull on both hunts, are they going to head home after the latter calling it a bad time?

I think a lot of this is people wanting the prestige of hunting a certain unit, or the validation in complaining that X amount of points somehow entitles them to.

 

[sndmn11]

What about sheep, or goats, or moose?

That's why there is a different system for this species in CO that gives some mathematical chance after 3 years.

I wonder how many people who advocate for true random apply for Desert Bighorn in CO before Rocky Mountain?

 

[Trial153]

Knowing what we know now about demand, current and past game populations, hunter demographics ect ect ...any consideration of point system An absurd idea.

Especially considering that we have seen some states trying to mitigate the issues that their point systems have all created, for example by placing percentages of tag allowances in random draws.

 

[HunterEng]

I think when point creep is discussed, people often forget about their home resident state. Where u have better odds than the non resident trying to go on thier dream western hunt. I think sometimes the grass is greener on the other side starts to take over.

I'll use me as an example. I love western hunting and the points system frustrates me at times. But I also live in iowa. Am guaranteed two tags a year for the big iowa whitetails that others dream about. But even though I hunt here and dont shoot a buck less then 150bc due to the amt that I see... All I think about going after a sheep or my next muley hunt. Sometimes we need to reflect and appreciate our home systems if they are advantageous and not complain about others

 

[Billinsd]

I've never once heard someone say that they stopped hunting or decided to never start because they perceive they can't have a "premium" out of state hunt. I have however heard of "bad" hunts for folks who banked their points for decades and then took their turn.

I haven't heard anyone say they won't hunt, or won't start hunting either. However, I've read hunters on forums like this state they are ready to quit hunting. So, we disagree. I've rarely heard or read "competent" hunters complain of premium hunts they waited decades for. I've heard some complain of premium hunts they've waited 10 or so years for.

If you took a 12yo hunter on a 20point tag and a no point tag, are those two numbers all that dictates a "premium" hunt? If they shot a bull on both hunts, are they going to head home after the latter calling it a bad time?

Of course not to first question. Answer to second question is; I don't know? It depends. I'll answer down below, which might answer your second question?

I think a lot of this is people wanting the prestige of hunting a certain unit, or the validation in complaining that X amount of points somehow entitles them to.

No, I don't think I agree. I believe "most" are sheep and follow. They do just barely enough research or effort to find the obvious great hunting areas EVERONE knows about. They put in, in these units, because everyone else is. You lose me on the wanting validation? Do you really think people put in for hunts just to be able to complain about them? I don't think so.

 

[BluMtn]

In Washington I have run across several special draw holders who have drawn with one or two points. It is what ever the computer kicks out gets the tag, but it seems once you are drawn it is much easier to get drawn the second or third time. I know a guy that has drawn the trifecta. He has drawn a special tag in archery, modern rifle, and muzzle loader all within the last 10 years. I made the commit to fish and game that instead of a computer draw, put them in a bucket and hand draw them. At least I would feel like I got a fair shake.

 

[Fatcamp]

I’m gonna have an unpopular opinion here. I am never one to claim “privilege” or “discrimination”.
But can anyone tell me how the point system isn’t discriminatory to younger people or those that are less wealthy?
I look at areas that take 20 years to draw and I say “ no kid could ever draw those”

The system is broken. I would recommend a system like MI elk where it is a draw and you get more chances every year.

The problem with that is eventually the people in the draw with the most points are also the oldest and tend to have the ear of legislators. They then lobby to change the rules to benefit themselves. Happens all over.

Here in South Dakota that group lobbied to cube points. And got it. Now for deer it isn't a problem because enough tags are issued to clear out the top point holders. Elk and other limited quota tags are so far out of reach it is pointless to even try. The number of double digits point holders will take decades to clear out.

So be it. The state did everything they could to minimize the impact of this change and never did release any sort of statistics on the comments they received. They basically do what they want.

 

[sndmn11]

I believe "most" are sheep and follow. They do just barely enough research or effort to find the obvious great hunting areas EVERONE knows about. They put in, in these units, because everyone else is. You lose me on the wanting validation? Do you really think people put in for hunts just to be able to complain about them? I don't think so.

I can absolutely see the "follower" perspective, especially with hunt application planer services.

My comment about validation is in that having a high number of points seems like an area of bravado to more and more people. It is used as an opening line to validate claims/positions/complaints. There's many examples of such in this thread. I don't think people gain points specifically to bolster their words, but they sure do get to telling how many they have before they let on about how to fox the draw.

I bring up the facts of being able to hunt twice a year in CO, and the hypothetical of a 12 year old's two hunts because a hunt's quality is all about perspective. It seems some people are stuck on "premium" only meaning many points. I think that gets talked about so much, that the potentially discouraged younger hunters that you referenced get molded to believe that they aren't going to have a good hunt unless others think it is "premium". There was a thread here two seasons ago where a gentleman killed a 350+" bull in the archery season on public land in SW CO otc license. People gave him a bit of a hard time saying it was a lie, or on private, or...you get the point, simply because it didn't fit into the box of what they had been told. The sadder part was that he didn't even post the picture, some other person did and grabbed it on-the-line. So I bring up that a person can still hunt and has all the opportunity in the world to have a fantastic and fun hunt, they just might not be able to say that it was on a 20 point tag.

 

[BFR]

I don’t worry about points anymore. Lost faith in them before I left California because of the point system for elk, or lack thereof. Max points yet seemed the tags went to the same rotating group with a few odd ones thrown in. Now if I have any points they are just because I didn’t get a tag, I don’t purchase them. But then I don’t have to go to the trophy units, I put in for where I think I have a chance to draw and have a chance of seeing animals.

 

[Tbaxl]

I've never once heard someone say that they stopped hunting or decided to never start because they perceive they can't have a "premium" out of state hunt. I have however heard of "bad" hunts for folks who banked their points for decades and then took their turn.

If you took a 12yo hunter on a 20point tag and a no point tag, are those two numbers all that dictates a "premium" hunt? If they shot a bull on both hunts, are they going to head home after the latter calling it a bad time?

I think a lot of this is people wanting the prestige of hunting a certain unit, or the validation in complaining that X amount of points somehow entitles them to.

The problem is though a 20 year old entering in to hunting out west using the point systems is competing against 40-50 year old people who have been playing the game a long time. Even as the younger accumulates point so does the older man. There is no catching up to him unless he stops trying. Half of being lucky in the point system is being older and having started in the 90’s or early 2000’s like plenty of people here have.

 

[sndmn11]

The problem is though a 20 year old entering in to hunting out west using the point systems is competing against 40-50 year old people who have been playing the game a long time. Even as the younger accumulates point so does the older man. There is no catching up to him unless he stops trying. Half of being lucky in the point system is being older and having started in the 90’s or early 2000’s like plenty of people here have.

I guess I would rather be smart than lucky and have more great hunts than can be counted while I'm wallowing in my sorrows of not getting to cut in line.

 

[FURMAN]

I did not read every post but it seems as if most of you are only looking at units with max or near max points. I don't love every state's setup but I do believe in points. I look to a few states to hunt with 2-4 points per animal and a few states for 10 years down the road. I usually don't have a problem filing my fall with tags and I don't typically have to be subjected to the overcrowded OTC hunts. I just hope those in this thread who are jaded will give up the points game to help me out.

 

[Tbaxl]

I guess I would rather be smart than lucky and have more great hunts than can be counted while I'm wallowing in my sorrows of not getting to cut in line.

Coming from someone else who lives in Colorado that shouldn’t be much of issue for you. But it is ironic how everyone preaches they want to get more people interested in hunting then get defensive when people want to hunt where they do. There is a large barrier to get in to a lot of areas to hunt and the barrier will never be reduced or removed. At least be straight up and say that you want more people to hunt as long as it doesn’t effect you. I understand that there is a limited population that can be hunted, there is no point system in the East because white tail are in abundance there is no disputing that. People come west for something different, heaven forbid they don’t want to wait years for a possible opportunity not even a guaranteed one.

 

[sndmn11]

Coming from someone else who lives in Colorado that shouldn’t be much of issue for you. But it is ironic how everyone preaches they want to get more people interested in hunting then get defensive when people want to hunt where they do. There is a large barrier to get in to a lot of areas to hunt and the barrier will never be reduced or removed. At least be straight up and say that you want more people to hunt as long as it doesn’t effect you. I understand that there is a limited population that can be hunted, there is no point system in the East because white tail are in abundance there is no disputing that. People come west for something different, heaven forbid they don’t want to wait years for a possible opportunity not even a guaranteed one.

I'm not sure if the irony was aimed at me. I have put Xs on places I have, do, and will hunt for people who ask and have done a little research. My career is reliant on people hunting. Grab an Em01101R or Ef01101R and shoot me a pm at the end of the summer after you have done some scouting. As I said, NOBODY has to wait years to hunt not once but twice every year. The only barrier is effort and the cost of the license.

 

[204guy]

The counter point isn't the ability to hunt. Its that's points systems are a pyramid scheme that only benefits those who get in on the ground floor. If we're talking CO how can you look a 12 year old kid in the face and tell him he won't have a chance to hunt that premium unit out his back door until he's 60. You going to tell him he needs to get over that instant gratification attitude that his generation has. The only chance people currently entering the system have to hunt the top end units is through attrition of higher point holders, either old age or death. Its pitiful and WY residents dont need any part of it.

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[sndmn11]

If we're talking CO how can you look a 12 year old kid in the face and tell him he won't have a chance to hunt that premium unit out his back door until he's 60.

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I wont instill in my son that others can assign value to what makes him happy and dictate to him what is "premium" in his life and what is to be spit on. I am 35 and a CO native, I have never once thought I was beat before I started with deciding where to hunt. There is so much opportunity.

Maybe you aren't aware, but folks hunt "premium" units every year without preference points ever being a question.