The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[NVUplandHunter]

The discussion at that point was about proving something doesnt exist in the universe.

Continuing your analogy, there have been numerous instances where "extinct" species were found to be still living on earth and then reclassified. So we cannot manage to "prove" the nonexistance of something on our own planet, let alone in the whole universe

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

okay thats fair... i will say i think there are instances where we can say something truly isnt here. like a 4 headed zombie T-rex that shoots laser beams out of its eyes... pretty sure we can agree those dont exist, yeah? or the gov is better at hiding things than i thought they were..... haha

i do understand your statement more now and it is valid.

 

[UpNorth89]

like a 4 headed zombie T-rex that shoots laser beams out of its eyes... pretty sure we can agree those dont exist, yeah?

Everyone knows those went extinct and few months after the 6UM came to light.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

im curious what made you leave the Catholic Churhc? as someone who did the opposite of you, i couldnt ever see myself going back to protestantism. so im interested to just hear what your reasoning is?

I was raised catholic and married a protestant girl. My path toward living a life like Christ is more alive as i am today, but i have nothing against catholics, parents still very devout practicing catholics.

I do know there are a ton of protestant denominations, so hard to know where you are coming from, but i see the catholic church steeped heavy in the God part, some denominations steeped heavy in the Jesus part, and some heavy in the Holy Spriti part. Finding a church that ties them all together well and teaches to all the parts of the tHoly Tinity is a quest we all should be on, but i find that a little easier in the non denominational world of christianity.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

I was raised catholic and married a protestant girl. My path toward living a life like Christ is more alive as i am today, but i have nothing against catholics, parents still very devout practicing catholics.

I do know there are a ton of protestant denominations, so hard to know where you are coming from, but i see the catholic church steeped heavy in the God part, some denominations steeped heavy in the Jesus part, and some heavy in the Holy Spriti part. Finding a church that ties them all together well and teaches to all the parts of the tHoly Tinity is a quest we all should be on, but i find that a little easier in the non denominational world of christianity.

totally get that part! I married a Catholic! started going to Mass and found it to be where i wanted to be.

I was going to a non denominational church for a while. my mom felt kicked out of the catholic church for divorcing my dad. was big into my youth group and all that and then started to shy away when we would spend 20 minutes talking about the offering and how important it was for me as a 17 year old kid to give my non existent money to them... that church now has multiple multimillion dollar buildings on their grounds and a massive coffee shop..

My church very much hits on the Trinity. The priests are very good at outlining each member of the Trinity and often call us to listen to the Holy Spirit while loving Jesus and following God's commandments. God is one and also three. mind blowing when that kinda sorta clicked enough. I got told one God is a gradualist, he gradually give us the understanding as we have the capacity. EPIC.

I know what you mean thought about each one kinda focusing on a single figure. My Father in law is deep in the protestant faith. His church is call "Shine, as Jesus Church" so like you said, heavy focus on Jesus. I agree with you, we gotta focus on all 3 and each role they will play in our lives. and i think as long as you're going to church (a good chruch), thats really what matters most. God writes on all our hearts and has a plan for each of us that we dont know and dont know why somethings happen!

 

[socoalt]

So it sounds like your christian beliefs are superior to catholic beliefs? Did I read that correctly?

So if there is no mention of Limbo in the NT, then why did the cc tell its followers for 400+ years that their dead child needs to be baptized or they will go to hell?

You seem to draw a line between christian and catholic beliefs. Do they worship the same god (can't believe I got it right this time. Yay me!)?

Dog (ugh!) does not get a free pass on accountability just because humans are involved. That's the get out jail free card for dog, yet he is supposed to be this omnipotent being. Does not pass the smeel test in my world.

Lastly, if you believe science, humans as we know them today have been on this earth between 100,000 and 250,000 years, yet this being with unlimited power only showed up roughly 2,000 years ago to show he cared about us humans. The 100,000+ years before his arrival where there was famine, drought, disease and unimagable violence against each other, he just turned a blind eye or simply didn't care enough to help. Any insights on that?

One more (I lied; a common trait among us atheists as we don't have god (yay!) to keep us on the straight and narrow): If you were born in the US, you are likely a christian; born in India, you are likely a hindu and born in Afganistan, you are likely a muslim. Well, that's pretty convenient they were all born under the right god and the others could not possibly be and are certainly going to hell.


Eddie

To @shortshcaf and NVuplandhunter my apologies my intent was never to single out Catholics as an offense and I truly hope none was taken.
I was, am and probably will continue to be a moron. I am not a historical scholar and I definitely spoke out of turn. We worship the same god and I used the example of Catholics v. Non denominational Christians pretty poorly. My intent to point out the differences in our ways of worship while worshiping the same God. It was used in the response to Eddielasvegas examples that he posted using Catholicism as committing some pretty ruthless acts in the name of God. My intent was merely to highlight the ways that people can either mis interpret what they read, see or hear. This happens in ALL denominations, and all people who are non believers. We are flawed and always will be. Those of us who believe in God are all doing our best to live by the word I have no doubt. Instances like this for me only make me want to try harder. Again I apologize to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

Eddielasvegas in response to the above post of yours. I can tell that the pain and atrocities in the world really bother you. You are no doubt a good person who cares deeply about people. My reply is one that I have no doubt you have heard before. It is that we have free will granted to us from God. These acts are committed by people, not God. He allows good things and evil things to occur. If he stopped it directly or took away our free will that would take our right to choose to believe or not. It is tough to comprehend but if we did not have our free will we would not be able to think critically, to choose for ourselves what is right or wrong or good or evil. These atrocities are allowed to happen so we can see evil, and be able to truly contrast it with what is beautiful. When (if) we get to heaven none of the things that happened on earth in this life will matter. Like some others have said in this thread “if you don’t like the topic feel free to scroll past it.” The initial intent was to bring glory to God.

With respect why do you care what others believe. If we are wrong and Christianity is not real then it is of no consequence.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I tell to anyone who bashes a church (used broadly there to mean denomination or catholic or whatever) there are plenty of people in EVERY church that are doing it for the right reasons and the wrong reasons, the correct “theology” and the wrong “theology”. There are ministers doing it for the right reasons and the wrong reasons every where too. Its not up to us to be judges, thats not our job, but we are called to walk humbly and carry our daily cross while we try to be a better example of Christs love. All of us fall short, as does every church, individually and collectively by denomination. But as long as we are all focusing on God trilaterally, thats all that really matters.

 

[Shortschaf]

To @shortshcaf and NVuplandhunter my apologies my intent was never to single out Catholics as an offense and I truly hope none was taken.
I was, am and probably will continue to be a moron. I am not a historical scholar and I definitely spoke out of turn. We worship the same god and I used the example of Catholics v. Non denominational Christians pretty poorly. My intent to point out the differences in our ways of worship while worshiping the same God. It was used in the response to Eddielasvegas examples that he posted using Catholicism as committing some pretty ruthless acts in the name of God. My intent was merely to highlight the ways that people can either mis interpret what they read, see or hear. This happens in ALL denominations, and all people who are non believers. We are flawed and always will be. Those of us who believe in God are all doing our best to live by the word I have no doubt. Instances like this for me only make me want to try harder. Again I apologize to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

None taken, I assumed your intent was to create some common ground and was not malicious. Thanks for taking my comment with grace

 

[eddielasvegas]

Are you asking in good faith, or trolling?

I'd love to know if you are aware of a truth of which I know nothing.


Eddie

P.S. Can facts be considered trolling? I didn't think it could, but then again, it seems "fear" in biblical terms is not the fear we all know today.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

To @shortshcaf and NVuplandhunter my apologies my intent was never to single out Catholics as an offense and I truly hope none was taken.
I was, am and probably will continue to be a moron. I am not a historical scholar and I definitely spoke out of turn. We worship the same god and I used the example of Catholics v. Non denominational Christians pretty poorly. My intent to point out the differences in our ways of worship while worshiping the same God. It was used in the response to Eddielasvegas examples that he posted using Catholicism as committing some pretty ruthless acts in the name of God. My intent was merely to highlight the ways that people can either mis interpret what they read, see or hear. This happens in ALL denominations, and all people who are non believers. We are flawed and always will be. Those of us who believe in God are all doing our best to live by the word I have no doubt. Instances like this for me only make me want to try harder. Again I apologize to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

Eddielasvegas in response to the above post of yours. I can tell that the pain and atrocities in the world really bother you. You are no doubt a good person who cares deeply about people. My reply is one that I have no doubt you have heard before. It is that we have free will granted to us from God. These acts are committed by people, not God. He allows good things and evil things to occur. If he stopped it directly or took away our free will that would take our right to choose to believe or not. It is tough to comprehend but if we did not have our free will we would not be able to think critically, to choose for ourselves what is right or wrong or good or evil. These atrocities are allowed to happen so we can see evil, and be able to truly contrast it with what is beautiful. When (if) we get to heaven none of the things that happened on earth in this life will matter. Like some others have said in this thread “if you don’t like the topic feel free to scroll past it.” The initial intent was to bring glory to God.

With respect why do you care what others believe. If we are wrong and Christianity is not real then it is of no consequence.

no offense taken! catholics take a lot of heat from a lot of different people and a lot of it is just because people dont know or havent been to a mass. i always encourage people to give the mass a try before passing judgement. you being mormon, i dont think that will happen though haha.

i think people care about what people believe because we know the reward of it and want to share that with people. its also spoken about in going out and sharing the good news. Me personally, while its not a "concern" of mine i do talk about God and my faith with people because i feel it helps me and i want to share that. In the end, we all have access to the same info and we get to choose out own paths. God gave us free will for a reason and we are allowed to use it.

 

[eddielasvegas]

To @shortshcaf and NVuplandhunter my apologies my intent was never to single out Catholics as an offense and I truly hope none was taken.
I was, am and probably will continue to be a moron. I am not a historical scholar and I definitely spoke out of turn. We worship the same god and I used the example of Catholics v. Non denominational Christians pretty poorly. My intent to point out the differences in our ways of worship while worshiping the same God. It was used in the response to Eddielasvegas examples that he posted using Catholicism as committing some pretty ruthless acts in the name of God. My intent was merely to highlight the ways that people can either mis interpret what they read, see or hear. This happens in ALL denominations, and all people who are non believers. We are flawed and always will be. Those of us who believe in God are all doing our best to live by the word I have no doubt. Instances like this for me only make me want to try harder. Again I apologize to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

Eddielasvegas in response to the above post of yours. I can tell that the pain and atrocities in the world really bother you. You are no doubt a good person who cares deeply about people. My reply is one that I have no doubt you have heard before. It is that we have free will granted to us from God. These acts are committed by people, not God. He allows good things and evil things to occur. If he stopped it directly or took away our free will that would take our right to choose to believe or not. It is tough to comprehend but if we did not have our free will we would not be able to think critically, to choose for ourselves what is right or wrong or good or evil. These atrocities are allowed to happen so we can see evil, and be able to truly contrast it with what is beautiful. When (if) we get to heaven none of the things that happened on earth in this life will matter. Like some others have said in this thread “if you don’t like the topic feel free to scroll past it.” The initial intent was to bring glory to God.

With respect why do you care what others believe. If we are wrong and Christianity is not real then it is of no consequence.

Ruthless is too gentle a word to describe the autrocities I sited. The latter is accurate. Ruthless is a bit like calling your local drug dealer an unlicenses pharmacist.

While the autrocities of the world do not bother me directly (like a friend or family member being involved), I do feel a modicum of sadness and compassion for those dealling with this thing called life.

I certainly do not need these autrocities to appreciate the beauty of the world. What a way to justify something.

I generally do not care what others believe and certainly am all for live and let live. The problem is when people act on those beliefs (that is almost exclusively related to religion) like the examples I sited, and the millions more, or killing people because they drew a caricature of their prophet. You get the idea.


Eddie

 

[Beagle1]

Hundreds of scholars and probably thousands of regular joes both atheist and believers have studied the New Testament trying like hell to disprove it. Especially the resurrection. It has never been done. Ever. Everyone who has tried has had to admit that the facts written in the New Testament happened. The Bible stands on its own, not one minute detail has ever been disproven. In the end more non believers have turned to faith after their attempts, the ones who remained non believers will still tell you what is written is true and cannot be disproven.

That’s categorically not true. Many respected scholars - historians, theologians, textual critics - have challenged and continue to challenge the claims of the New Testament, especially the resurrection. To say “it has never been done” is to ignore entire academic disciplines.

As for the claim that skeptics become believers once they investigate yeah that’s happened. But the reverse is also true, many believers become skeptics after studying the Bible in depth. Deconversion stories are common among former pastors and seminary graduates who realized there was evidence or inconsistencies they could no longer reconcile with their faith.

 

[Bugger]

okay thats fair... i will say i think there are instances where we can say something truly isnt here. like a 4 headed zombie T-rex that shoots laser beams out of its eyes... pretty sure we can agree those dont exist, yeah?

Ironic straw man argument… Is that any more unlikely than Ezekiel’s definition of an angel?

Ezekiel sees four living creatures, each with four faces (human, lion, ox, and eagle) and four wings. They are connected by their wings and are associated with wheels that move with them.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I dont see anything that was written by socoalt in the quoted post as categorically not true. You make that claim and then give nothing to back it up.

I assume you are referencing specifically the claims of the resurrection as something not true, but what was stated in the post was paraphrasing “no one has found evidence to disprove the resurrection” which is a true statement. There is no historical record of the body of Jesus of nazareth being found after he died. His tomb was empty three days later, despite it being guarded round the clock by roman soldiers.

While you personally may not accept the resurrection as a possibility and you may not want to acknowledge it as possible, the truth is something happened to Jesus’ body that stymied everyone opposed to Him and was reported by multiple of His followers as being alive again.

But maybe my assumption about what was categorically not true in that post is wrong. So please tell us what has been disproven in the New testament.

 

[Beagle1]

To @shortshcaf and NVuplandhunter my apologies my intent was never to single out Catholics as an offense and I truly hope none was taken.
I was, am and probably will continue to be a moron. I am not a historical scholar and I definitely spoke out of turn. We worship the same god and I used the example of Catholics v. Non denominational Christians pretty poorly. My intent to point out the differences in our ways of worship while worshiping the same God. It was used in the response to Eddielasvegas examples that he posted using Catholicism as committing some pretty ruthless acts in the name of God. My intent was merely to highlight the ways that people can either mis interpret what they read, see or hear. This happens in ALL denominations, and all people who are non believers. We are flawed and always will be. Those of us who believe in God are all doing our best to live by the word I have no doubt. Instances like this for me only make me want to try harder. Again I apologize to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

Eddielasvegas in response to the above post of yours. I can tell that the pain and atrocities in the world really bother you. You are no doubt a good person who cares deeply about people. My reply is one that I have no doubt you have heard before. It is that we have free will granted to us from God. These acts are committed by people, not God. He allows good things and evil things to occur. If he stopped it directly or took away our free will that would take our right to choose to believe or not. It is tough to comprehend but if we did not have our free will we would not be able to think critically, to choose for ourselves what is right or wrong or good or evil. These atrocities are allowed to happen so we can see evil, and be able to truly contrast it with what is beautiful. When (if) we get to heaven none of the things that happened on earth in this life will matter. Like some others have said in this thread “if you don’t like the topic feel free to scroll past it.” The initial intent was to bring glory to God.

With respect why do you care what others believe. If we are wrong and Christianity is not real then it is of no consequence.

If God allows evil to preserve free will then why does he allow natural evil such as hurricanes, earthquakes, tidal waves, plagues, childhood cancers to occur. Why not at least stop them and save innocent lives.

“These atrocities are allowed to happen so we can see evil, and be able to truly contrast it with what is beautiful.” Do you really need to see atrocities such as genocides to understand evil and appreciate beauty. To make it simpler would you tell the parent of a murdered child - this evil crime helps the rest of us understand beauty and goodness.

Also societies limit free will all the time. God could also do the same without removing our free will.

 

[Beagle1]

I dont see anything that was written by socoalt in the quoted post as categorically not true. You make that claim and then give nothing to back it up.

I assume you are referencing specifically the claims of the resurrection as something not true, but what was stated in the post was paraphrasing “no one has found evidence to disprove the resurrection” which is a true statement. There is no historical record of the body of Jesus of nazareth being found after he died. His tomb was empty three days later, despite it being guarded round the clock by roman soldiers.

While you personally may not accept the resurrection as a possibility and you may not want to acknowledge it as possible, the truth is something happened to Jesus’ body that stymied everyone opposed to Him and was reported by multiple of His followers as being alive again.

But maybe my assumption about what was categorically not true in that post is wrong. So please tell us what has been disproven in the New testament.

I stand by my post.

“Everyone who has tried has had to admit that the facts written in the New Testament happened.”

On the resurrection we have no contemporaneous Roman records, no writings from neutral witnesses, and the Gospels were written decades later by anonymous authors. Numerous religious scholars have discussed this at length. Jesus rising from the dead is not a settled historical fact.

 

[eddielasvegas]

I stand by my post.

“Everyone who has tried has had to admit that the facts written in the New Testament happened.”

On the resurrection we have no contemporaneous Roman records, no writings from neutral witnesses, and the Gospels were written decades later by anonymous authors. Numerous religious scholars have discussed this at length. Jesus rising from the dead is not a settled historical fact.

IIRC, there are multiple mentions of resurrection in the bible, but I believe it was the OT. Does anything in the OT count?

One or two individuals and then an entire graveyard in Israel.

Here's another question for the god fearing members reading this thread: Which version of the 10 commandants do you follow as there are more than one?


Eddie

 

[socoalt]

no offense taken! catholics take a lot of heat from a lot of different people and a lot of it is just because people dont know or havent been to a mass. i always encourage people to give the mass a try before passing judgement. you being mormon, i dont think that will happen though haha.

i think people care about what people believe because we know the reward of it and want to share that with people. its also spoken about in going out and sharing the good news. Me personally, while it’s not a "concern" of mine i do talk about God and my faith with people because i feel it helps me and i want to share that. In the end, we all have access to the same info and we get to choose out own paths. God gave us free will for a reason and we are allowed to use it.

lol…I said a moron not a Mormon. No offense to Mormons or morons.

 

[dylanvb]

I stand by my post.

“Everyone who has tried has had to admit that the facts written in the New Testament happened.”

On the resurrection we have no contemporaneous Roman records, no writings from neutral witnesses, and the Gospels were written decades later by anonymous authors. Numerous religious scholars have discussed this at length. Jesus rising from the dead is not a settled historical fact.

Google search results.
While there is no universally agreed-upon count, several historians outside the Bible mention Jesus, with some of the most prominent being Josephus, Tacitus,Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius. These authors offer brief but important corroboration of Jesus' existence and the early Christian movement

You mean to tell me that a time in history that only recorded the history of important and wealthy figures doesn't have more history and recordings of a poor man? Wow surprising.

The fact that we have any mention of Jesus Christ outside of the Bible goes to show the importance of him in this time frame. And yes you aren’t going to have any other direct written testimony of Jesus outside of the Bible is because no one else was following him as closely as his disciples were.

Mathew and John were both written by Mathew and John both disciples of Jesus Christ.

 

[go_deep]

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

 

[go_deep]

IIRC, there are multiple mentions of resurrection in the bible, but I believe it was the OT. Does anything in the OT count?

One or two individuals and then an entire graveyard in Israel.

Here's another question for the god fearing members reading this thread: Which version of the 10 commandants do you follow as there more than one?


Eddie

I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
John 13:34

If you follow this one earnestly and honestly, your going to cover all 10.