The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Shortschaf]

If Genesis is what people get hung up on, there is nothing in Christianity that demands a literal acceptance that the universe was created in six, 24 hour calendar days


The order of events in the creation story happen to align pretty well with the general timeline of planetary formation and life. My personal view is that the timeline is relative

It's fine to believe in the six day creation. And yes, some extreme denominations possibly treat that as a dogma. But I want to be clear that that exact belief is not required or what defines Christianity whatsoever

 

[Kenn]

Please give me an objective, direct, explanation of how we got here. Something with teeth that I can trust without a doubt.

Existence demands design. There is no getting around it. Try me.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

As you know, I can’t. I also can’t explain how a smart phone works or how Oreos are made, but I know it isn’t magic. There are a lot of theories but we may never know.

 

[blacktail434]

If Genesis is what people get hung up on, there is nothing in Christianity that demands a literal acceptance that the universe was created in six, 24 hour calendar days


The order of events in the creation story happen to align pretty well with the general timeline of planetary formation and life. My personal view is that the timeline is relative

It's fine to believe in the six day creation. And yes, some extreme denominations possibly treat that as a dogma. But I want to be clear that that exact belief is not required or what defines Christianity whatsoever

2 Peter 3:8: "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"

Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night"

 

[rabbithuntr]

If Genesis is what people get hung up on, there is nothing in Christianity that demands a literal acceptance that the universe was created in six, 24 hour calendar days


The order of events in the creation story happen to align pretty well with the general timeline of planetary formation and life. My personal view is that the timeline is relative

It's fine to believe in the six day creation. And yes, some extreme denominations possibly treat that as a dogma. But I want to be clear that that exact belief is not required or what defines Christianity whatsoever

The Bible specifically says morning and evening for each day as well the Hebrew word for day meaning a 24h period. If you don’t take creation literally it seems like a slippery slope to me.

 

[rabbithuntr]

2 Peter 3:8: "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"

Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night"

God created time but doesn’t live within its constraints, however when God created the world he placed it under the constraints of time.

 

[Brontosaurus]

As you know, I can’t. I also can’t explain how a smart phone works or how Oreos are made, but I know it isn’t magic. There are a lot of theories but we may never know.

My current theory is that oreos materialize the swamps of louisiana, are harvested by locals and then sold to Oreo Inc. Anything with order is designed and created.

The statement we may never know is foolish. Your existence demands that you do in fact know. Yet you deny it. Don't deny the existence of yourself and the world you live in. It's a truly remarkable place, intricately thought out and created by a very intelligent designer.

 

[blacktail434]

God is not restricted by the confines of time or space.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding" Proverbs 3:5

For those saying miracles are no longer happening among us today, as a simple example, I urge you to look up cases of "spontaneous remission" and provide an alternate, reasonable explanation

God created time but doesn’t live within its constraints, however when God created the world he placed it under the constraints of time.

Very humbling in my opinion.

 

[Kenn]

The statement we may never know is foolish. Your existence demands that you do in fact know. Yet you deny it. Don't deny the existence of yourself and the world you live in. It's a truly remarkable place, intricately thought out and created by a very intelligent designer.

WTF?

 

[Brontosaurus]

WTF?

Take the thought "we may never know" to the end. What does a conclusion of that look like?

 

[Brontosaurus]

Sorry for using the word foolish. That was spiteful of me. Your a smart guy. And using strong wording was foolish of me.

What Im saying is that you owe it to yourself to find out where you came from and where you are going. Give it some effort.

 

[Nickofthewoods]

I have a question. How come Christian rock music all sounds the same? One time a friend of mine had his Jeep break down in Utah so I drove my truck and trailer out there to get him in the middle of nowhere near St George. it was a pretty long drive back to Colorado so we played a game where we scanned the radio stations and whoever could guess the station genre first won that round. So similar to how you can immediately recognize a mariachi band before any vocals are played, Christian rock was identifiable every single time within 5 seconds even without any lyrics. So why does it have such a distinct instrumental sound? It makes no sense to me. Couldn't literally any band be a Christian band by just having religious lyrics?

 

[Valsport]

I have a question. How come Christian rock music all sounds the same? One time a friend of mine had his Jeep break down in Utah so I drove my truck and trailer out there to get him in the middle of nowhere near St George. it was a pretty long drive back to Colorado so we played a game where we scanned the radio stations and whoever could guess the station genre first won that round. So similar to how you can immediately recognize a mariachi band before any vocals are played, Christian rock was identifiable every single time within 5 seconds even without any lyrics. So why does it have such a distinct instrumental sound? It makes no sense to me. Couldn't literally any band be a Christian band by just having religious lyrics?

Man that's good. You saw and heard a difference. Not by might or power. The wheat and tares subtle difference that's what he teaches us. @Nickofthewoods

 

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1,
This response is also related to your post that was above the one I quoted, but ties in with this one. I would assume, possibly incorrectly, that you are a non-believer, from the way that you posted. Forgive me if I am incorrect. But I wanted to point out something as an example. When someone suffers a tragedy or injury, Christians say they are praying for that person, and rightly so. Non-believers say something like you did in the quote above, or they say something like “positive thoughts going up”, or “much strength to you”. Things like that. Doesn’t that seem pretty empty? If I tell someone that is going through a hard time “positive thoughts toward you”, how in the world does that actually help them, besides a little comfort in knowing someone cares that they are in a rough spot? For me, that doesn’t bring near the comfort as someone who is praying for me. I say this because I have personally experienced God’s comfort in my own life, in times of trouble. Non-believers may find this silly, but that’s okay. I know God personally. He’s taken far better care of me than I could ever deserve. I watch Him work in my life, and those around me, on a regular basis. It’s more than a belief, it’s a conviction of truth. I know for a fact that God is real. I know for a fact that salvation is real. I’ve experienced both of these in my own life and for myself, and no one can convince me otherwise. Once one sees God for himself, that can never be unseen.

I wrote this not as an attack on you, or any other unbeliever, but hoping that it may provoke some careful thought and consideration. Thanks for reading!

No offense taken. I understand your comment. What I said was heartfelt. If that is empty to you there is not much I can say. On my end when I am going through a tough time sincere kind words from others are helpful whether they are Christian in nature or not.

As to your “facts” we could go round and round on that but it would serve no purpose because as you said you cannot be convinced otherwise so it would be a waste of time for both of us.

 

[Beagle1]

I don't know about that happening to fervent believers. I know of a lot of luke-warm Christians that fall away from their faith, and many more who eventually come back.

If your happiness is rooted in worldly things, then yea it's far less fulfilling than that of a believer.

I've felt both.

Had it all going for me prior to being born again. Great marriage, great job, made my own schedule, didn't worry about money, never drank or smoked, big friend group...still felt a massive hole in my heart that wasn't going to be filled by anything else.

Doubting and being cynical is in our nature. God knows that, and His word has a funny way of extinguishing that doubt. Try it.

I am glad your faith brings you happiness. There are many examples of fervent believers who lost their faith not just the luke warm ones you mentioned. Check the background of Bart Ehrman, he was definitely not a weekend Christian. There is a spectrum of nonbelievers who became believers and believers who became nonbelievers. There is no stereotype for either side.

 

[Beagle1]

Do you know what country currently has the most people converting to Christianity? I'm not talking about CEO (Christmas Easter only) Christianity, but in the book daily, living for The Lord Christianity...some interesting data there...

I don't think you've spoken to many Christians if you believe that stat you shared. Perhaps it's just my age group, or area I live, but in our friend group, all the church events we attend, ministries, etc. it's a close 50/50 on who was raised by believers and who found faith as an adult. Many of those who were raised in a "Christian household" couldn't quote a single line of scripture aside from John 3:16 and haven't been to church in years.

My story is far from an outlier, it happens daily throughout the world, and when it does, there is no denying it.

There is not a single non-believer/athiest in this thread who is MORE convinced that Jesus/God are not who they claimed to be than I used to be...and look at me now.

Conversely there are extremely devout Christians who never doubted their faith who later became nonbelievers. Would their path to happiness be less valid than your path.

 

[Beagle1]

Be happy to. But first we need to talk about translations of text and without opening a giant can of worms let's just say that there are translations of the text that are done in literal form and then there are translations that are "attempts" to say the underlying message, if you will. "The Living Bible" translation falls more into the latter category while I tend to prefer a more literal translation of the text like "ESV- English Standard Version".

Going to the link, the first topic is Women and most of the text criticisms seem to be just objections to male/female roles. There is one using Genesis 3:16 where they use the NLT to claim that women "must welcome their husbands affections" (as if that would be a bad thing?" A more literal translation using the ESV reads, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you." This occurs, as we already mentioned in Genesis 3, after the fall of man. You're familiar with Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit, yea? Well after that, God was laying out what the consequences of their actions are. If the feminists are mad that men rule over women, it would be important to note that the original design of God was to be equal partners and after the fall, pain in childbirth and man's rule over women became the norm.

Moving on to Family and I'm just trying to pick the ones that might be easiest to explain here quickly:

1 Chronicles 2:34-35 "Sheshan gave his daughter to his slave Jarha" Not sure what their point is here. This is just narrative story, it's literally just a genealogy. But it goes to the point that people like to pick out a text in the Bible and make assumptions that God approves of these things just because they were written down. Text doesn't say that at all.


Sex, Adultery and Divorce: There are quite a few here that imply raping is ok when that is not what the text says it all. In Deuteronomy 22, the woman in question is either an engaged women, a non-virgin who lied about her virginity, and someone who is married and committed adultery with another man, not a rape victim but a willing participant. It is true that these things (aldutery/lying about virginity) did warrant death, as decreed by God for the nation of Israel.


Rape again comes up further down siting Deuteronomy 21:10-13. The text again doesn't say rape them, it says marry them.


The Worship Me or Else category: In the Old Testament context, Israel was a Godly nation, set apart by God, having been brought out of slavery in Egypt and given a land for their own. The texts you read are warnings from God not to let anyone with false idols or other gods be apart of their society. If you read enough of the Old Testament you can see that Israel fails miserably and it is not too long before the toxicity of false idol worship plagues their culture.
New Testament scriptures are pretty blatant and they got it right. Jesus does make the claim that He is the only way to Heaven. I think that is why we are here having this conversation. It's a bold claim and I would hope that everyone would analyze it for themselves at some point.



I may pick this back up later but I have got to get a little more work done today. If you have any that you would like for me to address specifically, shoot them out there. Maybe someone else will chime in also.

“If the feminists are mad that men rule over women, it would be important to note that the original design of God was to be equal partners and after the fall, pain in childbirth and man's rule over women became the norm.”

So because Eve ate a forbidden fruit her punishment—pain in childbirth and subordination to her husband—applies not just to her, but to all women who come after her. Yeah that seems like a fair punishment a just and loving God would impose for eating a forbidden fruit.

“In Deuteronomy 22, the woman in question is either an engaged women, a non-virgin who lied about her virginity, and someone who is married and committed adultery with another man, not a rape victim but a willing participant. It is true that these things (aldutery/lying about virginity) did warrant death, as decreed by God for the nation of Israel.”

So the women sentenced to death in these passages are those understood by the law to have been willing participants in adultery or deceit, not rape victims, and are put to death because of God’s law. So God’s penalty is death for forbidden sex regardless of the circumstances.

Kind of strange how Christian morality comes from this loving God who has a penchant for imposing death penalties for improper sexual conduct some of us here have likely engaged in and a woman eating a forbidden fruit sentences half of mankind to pain and subjugation.

 

[molliesmaster]

“If the feminists are mad that men rule over women, it would be important to note that the original design of God was to be equal partners and after the fall, pain in childbirth and man's rule over women became the norm.”

So because Eve ate a forbidden fruit her punishment—pain in childbirth and subordination to her husband—applies not just to her, but to all women who come after her. Yeah that seems like a fair punishment a just and loving God would impose for eating a forbidden fruit.

“In Deuteronomy 22, the woman in question is either an engaged women, a non-virgin who lied about her virginity, and someone who is married and committed adultery with another man, not a rape victim but a willing participant. It is true that these things (aldutery/lying about virginity) did warrant death, as decreed by God for the nation of Israel.”

So the women sentenced to death in these passages are those understood by the law to have been willing participants in adultery or deceit, not rape victims, and are put to death because of God’s law. So God’s penalty is death for forbidden sex regardless of the circumstances.

Kind of strange how Christian morality comes from this loving God who has a penchant for imposing death penalties for improper sexual conduct some of us here have likely engaged in and a woman eating a forbidden fruit sentences half of mankind to pain and subjugation.

Do you believe in right and wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jpsmith1]

Why buy Leupold/vortex when we have NF/Trij/SWFA?

For real though nothing about other spiritual or philosophical paths offer an objective understanding the universe. Seriously. I have looked at many other religions. Nothing comes close to what eternal life through Jesus offers.

Atheists have some serious balls believing everything just happened to align perfectly. At least pantheism and pan en theism have constructs similar to Christianty in terms of a creation account. Intelligent design is a thing. Heck I'd believe aliens made us before I believe a big bang did. I just dont have the necessary faith to become an atheist.

I think Ian hit the nail on the head. Take a moment and out of a sincere place ask God to reveal Himself to you. There's nothing to be scared of. Try it.

The assumption that, because I do not believe as you do, I did not 'sincerely try' is annoying to me and seems to border on arrogance.

You presume to know what my mind was and that I wasn't 'sincere' when I sat in church and when I read and studied, merely because I walked away thinking it was wrong.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Please give me an objective, direct, explanation of how we got here. Something with teeth that I can trust without a doubt.

Existence demands design. There is no getting around it. Try me.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Your designer, who presumably exists, was designed by?

If "existence demands design" please explain this.

No cheating or hand waving about "eternal" and "outside of time and space"

An "objective, direct explanation" that "i can trust without a doubt"

 

[Jpsmith1]

I am glad your faith brings you happiness. There are many examples of fervent believers who lost their faith not just the luke warm ones you mentioned. Check the background of Bart Ehrman, he was definitely not a weekend Christian. There is a spectrum of nonbelievers who became believers and believers who became nonbelievers. There is no stereotype for either side.

I am friends with many Ex-evangelicals.

This idea that people who "de-convert" never truly believed is simply wrong.