The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Valsport]

We have ALL ALL ALL fallen short of the glory and law. That's why Jesus is the only way home. This is good news, not bad. The bad is trying to do it without the son and his spirit. This is the ministry of reconciliation.

 

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1 i apologize if i mistook upur position. I thought upu said you were an atheist. Atheism means you do t believe there is any type of supreme being.

Please correct where i went wrong and state your position.

It's what I said. I don't see enough evidence to believe in God. The shorthand version is disbelief is atheism. That does not mean I think God is an impossibility. As I said I would have no problem being proved wrong and my world would not collapse. But as our long back and forth posts show, your proof is way short of my comfort zone.

 

[Beagle1]

If I tell you, don't walk around the back of my house and touch the metal fence you'll get shocked, would you believe me? Can you see the electricity to know if you would get shocked before you touched the fence?

I would likely believe you but not just because you said it. I would have to know more about you and if there was reason to believe you. I don't really follow your - can I see the electricity to know I would get shocked before I touched the fence. But if your point is even though I don't see the electricity I know it is real you are right. But that is because it is easy to test and verify its existence.

Now if I tell you no one should drink the water from that stream because it's polluted would you take my word for it. Maybe, maybe not but you could independently verify whether it was polluted to determine if what I said was true.

Now what if I said the stream is holy water and anyone who drinks from it will feel a divine presence. How would you test that. Maybe you drink from the stream and feel nothing and someone else does and feels divinity flow through him. Assuming you are both sincere about your feelings there is no way to verify whose feelings are reliable regarding the stream's divine powers.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I guess the good thing is, the book of Revelations tells us there will be opportunities to repent.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

It's what I said. I don't see enough evidence to believe in God. The shorthand version is disbelief is atheism. That does not mean I think God is an impossibility. As I said I would have no problem being proved wrong and my world would not collapse. But as our long back and forth posts show, your proof is way short of my comfort zone.

 

[eddielasvegas]

For some clarity, which dog (I'm dyslexic) do members posting in this thread believe in?

Ra
Thor
Brahma
Laskshmi
[Insert your dog here]


Eddie


P.S. And the path to wisdom starts with fear?
P.P.S. I sure wish Ricky would post in this thread and Hitch could post in this thread.

 

[Pwb199]

For some clarity, which dog (I'm dyslexic) do members posting in this thread believe in?

Ra
Thor
Brahma
Laskshmi
[Insert your dog here]


Eddie


P.S. And the path to wisdom starts with fear?
P.P.S. I sure wish Ricky would post in this thread and Hitch could post in this thread.

Are you asking and intentionally misspelling because you’re curious? or are you asking because it’s a chance to be rude?

 

[Jpsmith1]

You have to see tue hypocrisy you are speaking…you always didnt have 25 years of marriage to be reliable, repeatable, etc..at one point in your past it was as fresh as the morning dew and you still went with it…something no one else could see, test repeat, etc. And yet, you reject people who claim to have decades more experience with God just straight because you do not also have that same experience and can not see it. That is what some people would call a logical flaw.

Regarding the moral code, you certainly seem to have some sort of rules or basis you live by. So where did that come from? Have you ever given any thought to the orogin of your rule system? You clearly think a cheating spouse is bad, you clearly admitted harming someone else is not good. Where did these thoughts come from?

I mean, when my wife and I got engaged, we had been dating a year and a half and had been through some pretty crazy stuff including witnessing my best friend get shot so there's maybe more to things that you don't understand and assuming makes you look a fool.

I was clear that I'm not a moral philosopher. If it makes you feel better to think that the atheist, who spends a ton of time and money helping disadvantaged people which my wife and I do with no thoughts of some eternal reward, does so because your god placed some thing in us that makes us walking contradictions, openly saying that we don't believe while doing these things, more power to you. I'm more inclined to think that morals can be derived from things like empathy and compassion.

If it makes you happy to think "God did it" go wild, man.

 

[go_deep]

I would likely believe you but not just because you said it. I would have to know more about you and if there was reason to believe you. I don't really follow your - can I see the electricity to know I would get shocked before I touched the fence. But if your point is even though I don't see the electricity I know it is real you are right. But that is because it is easy to test and verify its existence.

Now if I tell you no one should drink the water from that stream because it's polluted would you take my word for it. Maybe, maybe not but you could independently verify whether it was polluted to determine if what I said was true.

Now what if I said the stream is holy water and anyone who drinks from it will feel a divine presence. How would you test that. Maybe you drink from the stream and feel nothing and someone else does and feels divinity flow through him. Assuming you are both sincere about your feelings there is no way to verify whose feelings are reliable regarding the stream's divine powers.

You get the general idea, in the moment, you can't test for it, so you have to believe that something you can't see is real. As far as the water, I do believe in holy water, because a priest or pastor can bless water, and make it blessed and holy. Can I see the difference scientifically, I don't know, I'm not a scientist with that kind of equipment to test it, but I do believe that's it's different.

As for the dirty water, I'd still drink it, through my water purifier, why, because I have faith that it'll work like it says it will. Even though I have no test equipment to prove one way or the other.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Maybe we are both arguing in circles, and i will accept that. But on one point you sit rhere and say you can judge something only because it is repeatable and reliably repeated, and then in another sentence you say that people “said” and that is reason not to believe in the revelation of God.

Can you actually read those peoples minds? Can you see inside their thoughts? You are making my argument anout emotions for me…tjey are neither reliable nor repeatable. What causes fear in one causes elation in another, what causes happiness one day may cause sadness the next.

Maybe we are both hypocritical. I just wish you would see the logocal flaw you are presenting. Its quite glaring.

I definitely think you're arguing in circles. I don't understand even slightly who youre responding to, what point you are responding to or what you’re driving at.

I also agree that we're kind of talking past one another.

 

[Jpsmith1]

If I tell you, don't walk around the back of my house and touch the metal fence you'll get shocked, would you believe me? Can you see the electricity to know if you would get shocked before you touched the fence?

Electric fences have insulators. I could easily verify this.

External and repeatable tests are important.

I can also use a tester to determine if the fence is live or not. And yes, i carry voltage testers in my truck as a part of my portable tool kit.

 

[go_deep]

Electric fences have insulators. I could easily verify this.

External and repeatable tests are important.

I can also use a tester to determine if the fence is live or not.

I was referencing stray voltage, and the fact that I'm the moment you just have to believe that it's there or not.

 

[Jpsmith1]

If I tell you, don't walk around the back of my house and touch the metal fence you'll get shocked, would you believe me? Can you see the electricity to know if you would get shocked before you touched the fence?

Exploring this idea further.

I touched on something similar using a freshly painted bench.

If I told you the paint was wet, what are the consequences of belief of not?

Well, a damaged suit of clothes and a messed up paint job, right?

But we can easily use our senses to test this, right? Fresh paint drips. A faint smell of paint in the air. Maybe a guy with paint streaked hands and a brush working on a second bench. A certain 'shine' or 'shimmer' to the paint that isn't *quite* dry. A quick touch to feel the tack.

All very simple and reasonable tests a person might do, right?

But tell me that God created everything and the moment I ask for evidence, I'm the bad guy?

Hmmmmm.

 

[go_deep]

Exploring this idea further.

I touched on something similar using a freshly painted bench.

If I told you the paint was wet, what are the consequences of belief of not?

Well, a damaged suit of clothes and a messed up paint job, right?

But we can easily use our senses to test this, right? Fresh paint drips. A faint smell of paint in the air. Maybe a guy with paint streaked hands and a brush working on a second bench. A certain 'shine' or 'shimmer' to the paint that isn't *quite* dry. A quick touch to feel the tack.

All very simple and reasonable tests a person might do, right?

But tell me that God created everything and the moment I ask for evidence, I'm the bad guy?

Hmmmmm.

Your not the bad guy for asking questions, I'd never once say that, because even in my own faith I have questions, that's how we learn and grow.

I'll just say this, and truly deep down inside, only you can answer this. Are you asking the questions because you truly want to know regardless of the answer? Or are you going through the motions asking questions, but you already have decide the answer you want, regardless of what the answer really is?

 

[dylanvb]

Exploring this idea further.

I touched on something similar using a freshly painted bench.

If I told you the paint was wet, what are the consequences of belief of not?

Well, a damaged suit of clothes and a messed up paint job, right?

But we can easily use our senses to test this, right? Fresh paint drips. A faint smell of paint in the air. Maybe a guy with paint streaked hands and a brush working on a second bench. A certain 'shine' or 'shimmer' to the paint that isn't *quite* dry. A quick touch to feel the tack.

All very simple and reasonable tests a person might do, right?

But tell me that God created everything and the moment I ask for evidence, I'm the bad guy?

Hmmmmm.

The thing you don’t realize is you are testing this idea. The only problem is you will find out at the end of your life. Are you willing to take that gamble?

If God doesn’t exist then we go to nothing.

If God does exist (which he does in my eyes) you will live a life separated from him for eternity.

Which gamble do you want to take?

Have your ego be right or humble yourself to the Creator.

Atheism puts you in the center. I put God in the center.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, again we have free will. Live your life how you want. We are just trying to warn you.

You will not be able to stand in front of God and say no one told me about You.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Probably not. People can certainly believe in anything based on faith alone. But we are not so careless about what to believe in. Christianity is not a small niche. It is a religion that started with double digit followers only 2000 years ago and is now the dominant world religion.
It did not get that way with evidence that looks untrue--the evidence is compelling enough to bridge the short gap of mystery with our faith



Yes the minutia is not to be concerned with all that much provided the correct "broad strokes" are believed--IE, belief that Christ's ressurrection has saved us, there is a Holy Trinity, etc. There are minor things we all get hung up on still, but none of them are worth abandoning the faith for. We all grow in our understanding every day, and many (most) of the minor misunderstandings do get explained over time




Yes not all of us can be right if we believe different things. On any individual topic there is only one right answer. I would say most of us Christians do agree on the vast majority of topics however, and the differences are truly minor in scope, or can be explained away with more education of one party.




No. Same God. That would be a "broad stroke" that all Christians agree on



What differences?
But yes there are things taught as theory, or "we believe this explanation because XYZ", and then move on from that



Im sure you have already looked at that for inspiration. But for anyone else reading I personally think the breakdown of the world religions is a logical starting point.

There are not that many religions to seriously consider. And if one goes by simple majority on that, you go God of Abraham > Christianity > Catholic
Statistical winner!

From there I would (and did) learn what that denomination actually teaches internally, see if I have further doubts, and if I do move on down the list

This is the kind of things that makes me question your assertion that "we are not so careless about what to believe in"

 

[go_deep]

This is the kind of things that makes me question your assertion that "we are not so careless about what to believe in"

Who knows who that dude is, and if that 17 second clip was totally taken out of context from the large video.

 

[Jpsmith1]

The thing you don’t realize is you are testing this idea. The only problem is you will find out at the end of your life. Are you willing to take that gamble?

If God doesn’t exist then we go to nothing.

If God does exist (which he does in my eyes) you will live a life separated from him for eternity.

Which gamble do you want to take?

Have your ego be right or humble yourself to the Creator.

Atheism puts you in the center. I put God in the center.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, again we have free will. Live your life how you want. We are just trying to warn you.

You will not be able to stand in front of God and say no one told me about You.

Ahh. Good ol Pascal's Wager.

Taking it a step further. Have you evaluated all the different afterlives from all the different and decided which ones to believe in? Some of them are pretty rough. No? Based on the logic that it's better to believe "just in case" shouldn't you?

I tend to prefer Aurelius in this case.

‘Live a good life. If there are gods and they are good, they will not care how
devout you have been, but will welcome you because of the values you
have lived by. If there are gods that are not good, then you should not want
to worship them. If there are no gods at all, then you will be gone, but you
will have lived a noble life that will continue in the memories of your loved
ones. I am not afraid.’

 

[dylanvb]

Ahh. Good ol Pascal's Wager.

Taking it a step further. Have you evaluated all the different afterlives from all the different and decided which ones to believe in? Some of them are pretty rough. No? Based on the logic that it's better to believe "just in case" shouldn't you?

I tend to prefer Aurelius in this case.

‘Live a good life. If there are gods and they are good, they will not care how
devout you have been, but will welcome you because of the values you
have lived by. If there are gods that are not good, then you should not want
to worship them. If there are no gods at all, then you will be gone, but you
will have lived a noble life that will continue in the memories of your loved
ones. I am not afraid.’

What’s your bases for “Good”?

There was only one true Good person in this world and I base that off Jesus Christ.

Again if you’re willing to take that gamble then I won’t argue. I can’t lol

 

[Jpsmith1]

Who knows who that dude is, and if that 17 second clip was totally taken out of context from the large video.

His name is Pastor Peter LaRuffa. This is an exerpt from the 2014 film "Questioning Darwin" you're welcome to watch it all