Tenmile vs mark5hd

[SDHNTR]

I’m so confused. Snipers don’t shoot a lot?

 

[realunlucky]

I’m so confused. Snipers don’t shoot a lot?

Basically it depends on the unit some shoot more than others.

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[Bubblehide]

Gary your painting with much to broad of a brush. Would going to a shooting class make you a better markman? Would it propel you above your peers?
In the end it really depends on the unit some get a trip to school and issued the extra gear to carry but some units do see them as mission critical and focus on continual range time which makes any shooter better.

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I was responding in a general aspect, so yes a broad brush, yet what I stated is not untrue. But yes, it does not tell the whole story.
To answer your first 2 questions: it depends on the person, the reason they are there, and what they are capable of taking away from the experience.

Exactly, some, but unfortunately not all get a trip or several to "school", unfortunately not all.

!00% agree, continual range time makes any shooter that cares, a better shooter.

At this point in my life, I am a recreational shooter and hunter. I no longer have any first hand experience into what our military does and doesn't do. So take what I say with a grain of salt, so to speak, as it is only from long past experience, and a very limited grapevine.

 

[Formidilosus]

I RO’d a match last year with the US Army Marksmanship Unit competing. Tyler Payne absolutely mopped the floor with the field. But I guess in the sense of a “sniper”, that’s not what we are talking about?

I’ve shot with Tyler, Danial, Robbie, etc. a lot. The AMU is not like any other org in existence, and they by definition compete near nonstop. The AMU, and the people within do not equal any operational unit.

 

[freddyG]

I think there is a common misconception here in that someone who does something for a living, is good at it. Law enforcement, and military included. This is mostly a false concept.

An enthusiast will be much more knowledgeable, and proficient in the same field, because it’s something they like to do. I run into this all of the time, when trying to find a professional to hire.

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you ever been in the military? Have you gone through the scout sniper program or had any special forces sniper training?

You're trying to tell us that the people in the military who's sole job is being a sniper doesn't practice their craft even though their life depends on it?

My habit which is obvious on this board is to speak on things that I do not do, have not done, and do not know.

 

[Formidilosus]

The reason that a real conversation about “the military” and any position in it can not be open and honest, is because the vast majority have an emotional attachment, or belief who’s genesis is vague at best, and generally an outright fallacy.


The whole point, is that the correlation between service in some unit and knowledge, skill, or ability in shooting, optics, or hunting does not exist. It’s ridiculous- go look at yearly ammo allotment for snipers and tell me by what magic they are “good” shooters”? Being that people love to have appeal to authorities, Frank at snipershide had an illuminating podcast with two USMC SS instructors….

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I think there is a common misconception here in that someone who does something for a living, is good at it. Law enforcement, and military included. This is mostly a false concept.

An enthusiast will be much more knowledgeable, and proficient in the same field, because it’s something they like to do. I run into this all of the time, when trying to find a professional to hire.

That observation mirrors my experience at pistol ranges. I have shot and trained with quite a few different federal and state LEAs. Most LEOs are pretty marginal at the range. Some are bad. Few are very good. Those that are very good were almost always enthusiasts. Every now and then you'd find someone who just had it in them to be a good shot and didn't care one bit about guns and shooting off duty.

The best of those LEOs wouldn't come close to measuring up to competitive shooters, unless they too were into competition.

I had no idea that military special forces units and snipers weren't top heap, but it kinda makes sense. They have much more on their plate than just shooting.

 

[Formidilosus]

That observation mirrors my experience at pistol ranges. I have shot and trained with quite a few different federal and state LEAs. Most LEOs are pretty marginal at the range. Some are bad. Few are very good. Those that are very good were almost always enthusiasts. Every now and then you'd find someone who just had it in them to be a good shot and didn't care one bit about guns and shooting off duty.

The best of those LEOs wouldn't come close to measuring up to competitive shooters, unless they too were into competition.

I had no idea that military special forces units and snipers weren't top heap, but it kinda makes sense. They have much more on their plate than just shooting.

Take your experience, and apply it to everything. There is no magic in this. Your comment about having more to do than shooting, is also a fallacy and is ridiculous in the extreme, yet is used constantly by both hunters and people paid to carry a gun when they perform below expectations.

 

[Formidilosus]

My apologies for getting into this, I have aversion to it and usually do not.

 

[SDHNTR]

I think there is a common misconception here in that someone who does something for a living, is good at it. Law enforcement, and military included. This is mostly a false concept.

An enthusiast will be much more knowledgeable, and proficient in the same field, because it’s something they like to do. I run into this all of the time, when trying to find a professional to hire.

Absolutely not the case in my profession of money management. “ Enthusiasts” Do things wrong way more often than right! Of course I also genuinely like what I do very much also.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Take your experience, and apply it to everything. There is no magic in this. Your comment about having more to do than shooting, is also a fallacy and is ridiculous in the extreme, yet is used constantly by both hunters and people paid to carry a gun when they perform below expectations.

I was an FO for a mech infantry unit from 83-85. I did that for the GI bill. We always had crap to do other than shoot. Breaking track, painting, equipment maintenance, mandatory training. Following that, I went to college, graduated then spent 18 years on active duty with the USCG. We had much more to do than weapons training. Ran as a reserve deputy for a while. My full time peers had much more to do than weapons training. I assumed it was much the same way with special units.

Of course priorities could and in many cases should be realigned. Dumping crap like domestic extremism mandatory training and such...

 

[JonnyB]

My apologies for getting into this, I have aversion to it and usually do not.

Nothing to apologize for. In fact, I thank you for offering up this information on here. If someone can’t tell your words are a result of action and experience, they are the ones who fall heavily into the “emotional attachment” group.

I can say without a doubt the one thing I did least of in the military on the DOD’s dime was shoot (maybe tied with hand to hand combat). In over a decade of service in combat arms and special operations, this was an alarming realization.


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[Sled]

Wow, this took a strange turn.

Fwiw, being a good enough shot is just that, good enough. It's part of the reason that when it counts, there are several trained guns ready to command shoot. One of those bullets will find it's mark.

 

[Dobermann]

When military snipers or LE “snipers” go to a sniper, PRS, etc. match, if they don’t shoot competition on their own time, they’re dead last or close to.

Phil Velayo has told the story many times of how he went to his first PRS match thinking he'd clean up and got humbled. (One source would be one his first podcasts on Modern Day Sniper.) And he's not the only one.

Frank also regularly makes the point by asking ex-snipers how many rounds they fired in a year - in almost all cases, it's very low.

What's interesting is that now people like Phil and the CR2 guys are taking knowledge from the comp world back to the schoolhouse - whether that's on recoil management, tripod use, "admin" while on the rifle, bipod techniques, better approaches to wind brackets, and so on.

 

[Formidilosus]

Phil Velayo has told the story many times of how he went to his first PRS match thinking he'd clean up and got humbled. (One source would be one his first podcasts on Modern Day Sniper.) And he's not the only one.

Frank also regularly makes the point by asking ex-snipers how many rounds they fired in a year - in almost all cases, it's very low.

What's interesting is that now people like Phil and the CR2 guys are taking knowledge from the comp world back to the schoolhouse - whether that's on recoil management, tripod use, "admin" while on the rifle, bipod techniques, better approaches to wind brackets, and so on.

Correct on all. Up until recently, and even now really, pointing out the issue makes one a pariah.


While some of the techniques and skills of competition are coming back to the baseline courses, a lot of the things that make PRS horrible from a practical standpoint are as well.

 

[Dobermann]

Correct on all. Up until recently, and even know really, pointing out the issue makes one a pariah.


While some of the techniques and skills of competition are coming back to the baseline courses, a lot of the things that make PRS horrible from a practical standpoint are as well.

And there's the challenge!

And we've seen both sides of this before, in pistol shooting.

 

[Formidilosus]

And we've seen both sides of this before, in pistol shooting.

Well, the difference being that if a person shot nothing but IPSC Open division and rose to a very high level only shooting that, that skill directly translates to a Glock 19. Give thy person just a bit of practice and they’re competitive in Production. The same can not be said of PRS rifles- from gun handling, to manipulations, to 28+ pound rifles that require no shooter input or control, to use of the magnification- none of it translates to field use. The spotting shots and calling wind is barely translatable due to zero recoil, and ability to watch trace in the scope.

 

[Lawnboi]

Well, the difference being that if a person shot nothing but IPSC Open division and rose to a very high level only shooting that, that skill directly translates to a Glock 19. Give thy person just a bit of practice and they’re competitive in Production. The same can not be said of PRS rifles- from gun handling, to manipulations, to 28+ pound rifles that require no shooter input or control, to use of the magnification- none of it translates to field use. The spotting shots and calling wind is barely translatable due to zero recoil, and ability to watch trace in the scope.

I’m constantly fighting the urge to buy some points with more weight and less powder.

Still fun. I’m happy where I’m at with my 18lb 6.5 creedmoor. Shooting that thing feels like cheating compared to my hunting guns.

I’m tempted to shoot my 223 for a match. If I’m on my A game I can hold 2moa from most positions, which should be good enough to not leave me going home with what I’d consider acceptable shooting.

 

[Formidilosus]

Still fun. I’m happy where I’m at with my 18lb 6.5 creedmoor. Shooting that thing feels like cheating compared to my hunting guns.

It certainly can be fun, the problem is to be competitive it demands things that are out of step with reality. I am all in on competition, and to be good at anything you must compete. There just isn’t anything for precision rifles that offers what USPSA does for pistols. It wasn’t always this way, it’s the design of precision matches that caused the switch. Wasn’t that long ago that a dude could literally take a stock CTR in 6.5 or even 308 and win local matches, and truthfully major matches. The biggest difference is in three things- weight of the rifles due to ridiculous par times, tripods, and stages designed as barricade benchrest.

Time plus or hit factor scoring would near totally remove the silliness of it.