Tenmile vs mark5hd

[Novice]

Really wish I was allowed a suppressor

 

[Jimbee]

Depends on the bullet. I wouldn’t say that a 6mm is the ideal true long range caliber, but not due to terminal performance. If someone is legitimately going to be taking 1,000+ shots at big game, a purpose built heavy, 30 or 338 cal is the way. Not for terminal reasons, but because when you miss- and you will (often), the bigger bullet offers more splash to see. True long range hunting is not general purpose hurnung, and the gear and personalities of those doing so need to reflect that. Hunting at long range requires much more to competently use in the field than people give credit it for.

I was mostly just wondering about 6mm bullet performance. I've been working on my reloading and shooting the last year or so and appreciate your useful information. I don't currently have any illusions of trying to take a poke at a distant animal as I struggle to consistently hit a 10 inch plate at 600+ yards. But I'm getting there. Also, I live in Iowa and mostly hunt with a bow or muzzleloader.

 

[Formidilosus]

I was mostly just wondering about 6mm bullet performance. I've been working on my reloading and shooting the last year or so and appreciate your useful information. I don't currently have any illusions of trying to take a poke at a distant animal as I struggle to consistently hit a 10 inch plate at 600+ yards. But I'm getting there. Also, I live in Iowa and mostly hunt with a bow or muzzleloader.

Probably the bullet that is commercially available right now that I would start with is the 108gr ELD-M. The 95gr TMK is solid, so are the Bergers VLD’s. If more penetration is desired, the Hornady 105gr HPBT is good. With those, as long as impact velocity is above 1,800’ish FPS you will get good performance.

 

[Jimbee]

Probably the bullet that is commercially available right now that I would start with is the 108gr ELD-M. The 95gr TMK is solid, so are the Bergers VLD’s. If more penetration is desired, the Hornady 105gr HPBT is good. With those, as long as impact velocity is above 1,800’ish FPS you will get good performance.

I've heard you talk about ELDM and ELDX bullets needing 1800 fps or more for reliable expansion. According to my Strelok app, my 6.5CM shooting 147ELDMs fall below 1800 fps long before 1000 yards. This is why I ask about bullets and velocity when I hear about long range kills. I don't have much personal experience hunting with centerfire rifles.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've heard you talk about ELDM and ELDX bullets needing 1800 fps or more for reliable expansion. According to my Strelok app, my 6.5CM shooting 147ELDMs fall below 1800 fps long before 1000 yards. This is why I ask about bullets and velocity when I hear about long range kills. I don't have much personal experience hunting with centerfire rifles.

Ah yeah, a 6.5 CM isn’t going to make a K with 1,800fps.

 

[roosiebull]

7-9lbs with 10’ish Ft-lbs if recoil or more (6mm level), starts having fall offs in shootability. Of course one can shoot a 8lb 6.5 CM well, but form, position, etc. become quite critical even suppressed. With a 6.5 cm level recoil, a well designed 9-11lb rifle is a comfortable spot.
The T3 Lite with 20” barrel in 6mm, 6.5, or 308 with suppressor and 20-24oz scope and lighter bipod will be right at the 12lb mark, take the bipod off and your in the 10lb range. That setup is an extremely solid field rifle, and is way more practical as a general purpose mid to longe range, all around tool than the PRS things being built and used now.

Weight is important and hit rates are important. If one can think of the general purpose filed rifle as a 0-800 yard capability, with possibility to push to 1,000-1,200 in emergencies, then a 6mm to 6.5mm mid pack cartridge, and weight make a hard case to argue against. While a 8lb all up rifle is great to carry, the stock designs do not allow for as much shootability as a chassis. So adding 1-2lbs starts to make sense and be worth it.


A 10-11lb suppressed, compact, 6mm or 6.5mm is extremely hard to top from a portability/shootability/lethality view. It why almost everyone I’m around has ended up there.

6.5 CM, Sub 10lbs as it sits, has killed repeatedly out to 801 yards, and is competent at 1,200 with a spotter.
View attachment 385993


6.5 PRC, Sub 12lbs (a bit heavy barrel), has killed without issue to 910 yards, and is a legit 1,300 yard rifle.
View attachment 385994



Left is 11.5lb 6mm, right is 8.5lb 6.5 cm, both right after killing elk past 600 yards. The light 6.5cm is shootable- but is right at the edge of being just a touch critical.
View attachment 385995

That’s a very info rich reply

I have been piecing things together and will end up right in that “shootable” zone by default… not going to lie, I was having a hard time in concept weighing down my rifle piece by piece, but I think it will be an overall improvement for everyone who shoots it…. That was the reason to start this project, but I’m liking it more and more too.

After my chassis is done, all there will be left is a can, which will be awhile… kinda funny since I have always tried to have the lightest rifle I could

 

[Hondo64d]

It certainly can be fun, the problem is to be competitive it demands things that are out of step with reality. I am all in on competition, and to be good at anything you must compete. There just isn’t anything for precision rifles that offers what USPSA does for pistols. It wasn’t always this way, it’s the design of precision matches that caused the switch. Wasn’t that long ago that a dude could literally take a stock CTR in 6.5 or even 308 and win local matches, and truthfully major matches. The biggest difference is in three things- weight of the rifles due to ridiculous par times, tripods, and stages designed as barricade benchrest.

Time plus or hit factor scoring would near totally remove the silliness of it.

I don’t shoot a lot of matches, and while I enjoy the ones I shoot, I’ve always thought the scoring should put more emphasis on first round hits. It seems to me that the reason the PRS rifles have evolved into what they are is to allow the shooter to spot their 1st round miss and correct accordingly. Wouldn’t it be better to get a first round hit? I’ve always thought there should be a couple of offhand stages too. There’s been many times while hunting, where I have got caught with my pants down and had to shoot offhand at animal that appeared unexpectedly while there was no opportunity to establish a better shooting position. I’d love to see how guys with those 20lb PRS rigs would do offhand.

John

 

[Carl Ross]

I don’t shoot a lot of matches, and while I enjoy the ones I shoot, I’ve always thought the scoring should put more emphasis on first round hits. It seems to me that the reason the PRS rifles have evolved into what they are is to allow the shooter to spot their 1st round miss and correct accordingly. Wouldn’t it be better to get a first round hit? I’ve always thought there should be a couple of offhand stages too. There’s been many times while hunting, where I have got caught with my pants down and had to shoot offhand at animal that appeared unexpectedly while there was no opportunity to establish a better shooting position. I’d love to see how guys with those 20lb PRS rigs would do offhand.

John

You can do pretty well in a PRS style competition with relatively little wind reading skills. If you get a wind suggestion from the previous shooter (works best if they're a GOOD shooter), and then extrapolate well from one target to the next, you can get through a match without having to make but a handful of "blind" wind calls for yourself. Doesn't mean excellent wind reading skills won't help your score, but not as much as you'd like to think if a shooter is playing the rest of the game well. Also, you pretty much have to do your wind reading prior to shooting, many stages just don't allow for time to pause and evaluate a condition change. I'm usually on glass right up until my turn starts for just that reason.

There are matches that weigh first round hits higher than second round. NRL Hunter and others do it through dead targets, hit your first shot and you move on. Most if not all PRS matches just do a point per hit. If it's a meatbally match where the winner is going to shoot 90% or especially 95+% of the available points, you have to get almost all of those first round hits to do well anyways. A point per hit IS simple, and if you looked at the placement at the end of most matches it ends up similar with either scoring style.

The biggest difference I notice shooting a full match rifle offhand vs a more practical setup is just that I get tired quicker with the match rifle. Doesn't hurt that mine is 18 lb without the bipod, I've never tried it with a 28-30lb rig like some guys compete with.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t shoot a lot of matches, and while I enjoy the ones I shoot, I’ve always thought the scoring should put more emphasis on first round hits. It seems to me that the reason the PRS rifles have evolved into what they are is to allow the shooter to spot their 1st round miss and correct accordingly. Wouldn’t it be better to get a first round hit?

There’s really three main discussions, the first is scoring system, the second is match layout/stage design, the third is the equipment that the match drives. They are all interconnected, but somewhat separate.


The reason that most matches have turned into barricade and tripod benchrest matches is because shooters didn’t want to work. Shooters didn’t like matches were the winner was only getting 50-60% of the available points, they wanted matches were most shooters get a majority of points, which means that the gap between scores is small. People HATE offhand stages, or stages where they can not use any artificial support- they removed those. People also HATE timing out, so they made par times ridiculous- which allows stupid setups to be used. So matches started tailoring the events to be a game, where people feel good about themselves; it also makes it easy on match directors and stage designers- remove novelty and it is much easier to design stages.
The scoring also drive it to be that way, as Ross stated, you don’t even need to be able to call wind- get it from other competitors, or because you are free recoiling a 30lb rifle that barely vibrates- just watch the trace of the first shot and extrapolate from there.
This resulted in matches where you step up, throw the game changer bag down, lay the rifle on it, shoot. And once stages become that, what you really need is an F-Class rifle. And that’s what it has become to a large part- a 6mm, supported F-Class Match at varying distances. Then the “sponsored” shooters really hit. Everyone and their brother with a jersey that looks like a prostitution billboard. And because they are “sponsored”, they really need to win- which is where you get to Frank at SH discussions on their behavior. Even at local matches it happens.


All this is to say- that what once were “sniper” matches, has turned into a standing, kneeling, prone F-Class match using purpose built, wholly unpractical rifles and equipment. AND that’s ok. There’s nothing wrong with a true game- PRS is golf with rifles. The issue is that it is driving things in the practical/hunting world by osmosis, and that is an issue. Almost every new piece of gear is PRS derived- scopes with reticles that are invisible at low power and that have no ruggedness to them. Metal chassis for everything, because no one holds a rifle in the cold. Rifles built around shooting off of tripods, because most game stands around for two minutes while you set that up, etc. etc. There are lots of people that talk about the issues with PRS/NRL and NRL Hunter was an effort to help some, and may have a little bit, however all the break off matches and clubs, etc. are PRS shooters, reinventing PRS.


Most of that could be fixed with three things-

1). Time plus scoring- your score is the time is takes to hit all targets.

2). Stages designed where the majority of shots are not prone, and the positions are awkward and uncomfortable.

3). Every piece of gear used for a stage must start in your body and be stowed- no preset tripods or bags.

4) Realistic weight divisions- light rifles aren’t 12lbs.

 

[sndmn11]

Most of that could be fixed with three things-

1). Time plus scoring- your score is the time is takes to hit all targets.

2). Stages designed where the majority of shots are not prone, and the positions are awkward and uncomfortable.

3). Every piece of gear used for a stage must start in your body and be stowed- no preset tripods or bags.

4) Realistic weight divisions- light rifles aren’t 12lbs.

So what you are saying is, when @Ucsdryder and @CoStick come up for Spring Break scope party, we will also develop the WKR NBAHRSS (No Bull All Hunting Rifle Shooting Situations) on your own league?!?!?!? Best. Spring. Break. Ever.

@Ryan Avery should do something up like the cold bow challenge; drop your gear, shoot the WKR NBAHRSS, win a prize.

 

[Formidilosus]

So what you are saying is, when @Ucsdryder and @CoStick come up for Spring Break scope party, we will also develop the WKR NBAHRSS (No Bull All Hunting Rifle Shooting Situations) on your own league?!?!?!? Best. Spring. Break. Ever.

@Ryan Avery should do something up like the cold bow challenge; drop your gear, shoot the WKR NBAHRSS, win a prize.

Haha. I’m game.

 

[Carl Ross]

Form, I agree with you on almost all the above with one exception. I don't find my experience supports the emphasis on speed you suggest, which also probably changes how we feel about tripods.

I went through my log of the last decade's worth of animals, and 80%+ of them allowed for plenty of time to setup. My shot scenarios are 35% bedded / 55% feeding/standing undisturbed or alert but sticking around / 10% in a hurry. A handful of them were shot off tripods. The ones that were in a hurry are cause I was the second shooter, or I got caught on a stalk.

I'm guessing that's not your experience?

If I were to design a COF just to prepare someone for the hunting engagement scenarios I've experienced, I'd place a high value on building good positions in varied terrain and making a careful first round shot. Speed would be a component, but would be secondary.

 

[SDHNTR]

Boy am I glad I can actually hunt all year! All this PRS talk makes my head spin.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, I agree with you on almost all the above with one exception. I don't find my experience supports the emphasis on speed you suggest, which also probably changes how we feel about tripods.

I went through my log of the last decade's worth of animals, and 80%+ of them allowed for plenty of time to setup. My shot scenarios are 35% bedded / 55% feeding/standing undisturbed or alert but sticking around / 10% in a hurry. A handful of them were shot off tripods. The ones that were in a hurry are cause I was the second shooter, or I got caught on a stalk.

I'm guessing that's not your experience?

If I were to design a COF just to prepare someone for the hunting engagement scenarios I've experienced, I'd place a high value on building good positions in varied terrain and making a careful first round shot. Speed would be a component, but would be secondary.

No. On some animals and some types of hunts we have allbthe time in the world, on most I do not. Time is a stressor, nothing more. There is no benefit to ability or skill to only doing something in 120 seconds, instead of doing the same in 20 seconds. Practical matches are a skill building or skill measuring event. Or at least they should be.

The precision required really has a set size of 8” to 12” targets. Those sizes match real target for a variety of game, smaller for varmints of course. Shooting 2” targets at 658 yards with what amounts to unlimited time, isn’t a real measure of skill that translates to field use; or at least not nearly as well as hitting a 10” target 9 seconds faster. I’m not saying that all stages or targets should be time based, it’s that time is the commodity that we as the hunter do not control- the animal controls that. So regardless of what we think we have for time, the animal gets to choose or change it at will. We didn’t kill at least 8 animals this year because the shooter was 5’ish seconds too slow. I am not saying that tripods and ample time to setup never happens, it does and very well may be the majority how some hunt- Coues hunting for instance struck me as a near perfect match for tripods and PRS rifles.




I wrote this in another thread asking about positions and times-

“A partial list of animal opportunities this year,

1. coyote: 315- 420 yards. Sitting on top of pack, 26 seconds, timed out
2. Coyote, 270y prone, bipod, 21 seconds- killed
3. Coyote, 86y, 7 seconds, killed
4. Elk, 515, 45 seconds, prone, timed out
5. Elk, 608, prone, sub 20sec, timed out
6. Turkey, 266y, prone, 51 seconds, killed
7. Turkey, 278y, prone, 12 seconds, killed
8. Deer, 208, prone, 40 seconds, killed
9. Deer, 312y, prone, 18 seconds missed
10. Turkey, 168y, prone, 14 seconds, missed
11. Turkey, 175y, 9 seconds, missed
12. Deer, sitting on pack 318y, less then 15 seconds, timed out
13. Deer, 250-350y, multiple opportunities, sitting/kneeling on pack, timed out
14. Deer, 378y, prone, 18 second, killed
15. Deer, 402y, prone on pack, 7 seconds killed
16. Deer, 612y, prone, 24 seconds, killed
17. Elk, 640-680y, prone, 40’ish seconds, timed out
18. Elk, 850y, 45 seconds, prone, timed out
19. Elk, 910y, prone, 16 seconds, killed
20. Elk, 628y, prone, more than a minute, killed
21. Elk, 644y, prone, 8 seconds, killed
22. Elk, 994y, prone, 24 seconds, missed
23. Elk, 373y, sitting on pack, 11 seconds, killed
24. Elk, 373y, sitting on pack, 8 seconds, killed
25. Elk, 418y, prone, 20’ish seconds, timed out
26. Elk, 350’ish, prone, 5 seconds, killed
27. Elk, 287y, 5 seconds, prone, killed
28. Elk, 458y, prone, 6 seconds, killed
29. Elk, 490y, prone, 30’ish seconds, killed
30. Elk, 488y, prone, 30’ish seconds, missed
31. Elk, 550y, prone, 9 seconds, killed
32. Elk, 80’ish, standing offhand, 4’ish seconds, killed
33. Elk, 558y, prone, 17 seconds, killed
34. Elk, 560y, prone, 17 seconds, missed
35. Elk, 280y, prone, 13 seconds, killed
36. Elk, 970-980y, prone, rodeo of more than 40 minutes, killed

Every single animal that “timed out” (meaning the person ran out of time), was from people that averaged below 14-15 on the hunting rifle drill, and specifically struggles with the position that mimics the animal shot. Every animal but one that was killed, was by people that average between 15-19 on the hunting rifle drill. This year was slightly unique in that there were a lot of prone shots, most years around 60-70% of opportunities are from sitting or kneeling using a pack or hiking sticks as a rest. The average time for all shots available are between 10-20 seconds, or no rush at all.”

 

[Carl Ross]

No. On some animals and some types of hunts we have allbthe time in the world, on most I do not. Time is a stressor, nothing more. There is no benefit to ability or skill to only doing something in 120 seconds, instead of doing the same in 20 seconds.

100% on better to do something faster than slower.

Practical matches are a skill building or skill measuring event. Or at least they should be.

Agreed. And I like the games, but I recognize the area's they make you weaker at shooting in the field as well. I'd be into a practical style match, or a bunch of them. Wonder how well you could get shooters on board, part of the reason MD's don't stray far from the format is the audience for the PRS style is already established.

The precision required really has a set size of 8” to 12” targets. Those sizes match real target for a variety of game, smaller for varmints of course. Shooting 2” targets at 658 yards with what amounts to unlimited time, isn’t a real measure of skill that translates to field use; or at least not nearly as well as hitting a 10” target 9 seconds faster. I’m not saying that all stages or targets should be time based, it’s that time is the commodity that we as the hunter do not control- the animal controls that. So regardless of what we think we have for time, the animal gets to choose or change it at will. We didn’t kill at least 8 animals this year because the shooter was 5’ish seconds too slow. I am not saying that tripods and ample time to setup never happens, it does and very well may be the majority how some hunt- Coues hunting for instance struck me as a near perfect match for tripods and PRS rifles.

If I put a 2" target at 658 in a match as a MD, I'd be expecting some middle fingers coming back my way. I put a .2 mil wide target at 320 as a separator in one recently and knew it was kinda silly, but actually didn't have any negative feedback on it.

Every single animal that “timed out” (meaning the person ran out of time), was from people that averaged below 14-15 on the hunting rifle drill, and specifically struggles with the position that mimics the animal shot. Every animal but one that was killed, was by people that average between 15-19 on the hunting rifle drill. This year was slightly unique in that there were a lot of prone shots, most years around 60-70% of opportunities are from sitting or kneeling using a pack or hiking sticks as a rest. The average time for all shots available are between 10-20 seconds, or no rush at all.”

My hunting style for most things probably looks a lot like Coues hunting, though I've never been Coues hunting. Lots of time glassing from tripods from fixed positions for 20 minutes to 3 hours. If game is spotted evaluate it, if you want to take it make a plan to do so. If it's in range sometimes that just means unclip the bino's from the tripod and clip in the rifle, or go bipod prone if the terrain allows. Elk hunting would be where I see that divirge the most, but that's a small percentage of what I do.

With Time+ scoring, are you penalized for misses or only for targets that don't ultimately get hit? If there are penalties for misses I'm in. If all a miss costs you is the extra time it takes to re-engage, that isn't the mode I want to be in while hunting. I'm completely on board with training to be as fast as possible - at a high hit percentage.

May actually try a match out this way, even if it's invite only for friends instead of official and open to the public. I'd like to practice like that, and I practice for what I expect in matches.

 

[Formidilosus]

If I put a 2" target at 658 in a match as a MD, I'd be expecting some middle fingers coming back my way. I put a .2 mil wide target at 320 as a separator in one recently and knew it was kinda silly, but actually didn't have any negative feedback on it.

Oh I like very low probability shots/targets strategically placed. Put a 12” plate up, prone shot, hit it twice- if you miss you have 5 seconds to gut a 4”x8” strip placed vertically ten yards from the first target… that makes friends.

With Time+ scoring, are you penalized for misses or only for targets that don't ultimately get hit? If there are penalties for misses I'm in. If all a miss costs you is the extra time it takes to re-engage, that isn't the mode I want to be in while hunting. I'm completely on board with training to be as fast as possible - at a high hit percentage.

With standard time plus scoring the penalty is just the time added- which can be and is significant if you start missing. The other way to do it, which some matches have done, is each miss adds 5 seconds to the time, and/or there is a limit in the amount of shots allowed and if a target isn’t hit there is a 20-30 second penalty added. There are a few hundred STS to do it to balance it. The issue is that if you design a match or targets so that say 80% or targets can be hit with the first round, or make the targets so small; both will drive the equipment back into benchrest rifles.

 

[Carl Ross]

Thanks for the input. My wheels are turning...

I think I could make a good COF for a group of friends, but some of my ideas could be harder to adapt for a full match where we normally squad RO. Thinking mostly single target & position, two shots to clear, 4 or 5 shots allowed, 5 second penalty per miss, 20 for not clearing. Appropriately challenging positions and targets being a given. Would ideally run it blind, which makes it harder to setup.

I'd probably do a weight and muzzle device limit. Probably not any power factor. I get the power factor, but annoys me a little I have to pull the Dasher barrel I actually hunt with off my hunting rifle and put on a 6.5x47 barrel to make PF for NRL Hunter. But I CAN put a Little Bastard on it, and will need to if I want to be on equal footing.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for the input. My wheels are turning...

I think I could make a good COF for a group of friends, but some of my ideas could be harder to adapt for a full match where we normally squad RO. Thinking mostly single target & position, two shots to clear, 4 or 5 shots allowed, 5 second penalty per miss, 20 for not clearing. Appropriately challenging positions and targets being a given. Would ideally run it blind, which makes it harder to setup.

I'd probably do a weight and muzzle device limit. Probably not any power factor. I get the power factor, but annoys me a little I have to pull the Dasher barrel I actually hunt with off my hunting rifle and put on a 6.5x47 barrel to make PF for NRL Hunter. But I CAN put a Little Bastard on it, and will need to if I want to be on equal footing.

Yes indeed. And it can be done for a match, you just have to use stage RO’s or put people that truly know what the design and intent for each stage is in each squad (you know this).


Power factor for hunting/precision rifle is silly for the same reasons it’s silly in USPSA now- 22 and 24 cals kill just fine. That’s one point about NRL that I find annoying, I can’t use the rifles that I do 90% of killing with.

 

[HaydenLane]

Power factor for hunting/precision rifle is silly for the same reasons it’s silly in USPSA now- 22 and 24 cals kill just fine. That’s one point about NRL that I find annoying, I can’t use the rifles that I do 90% of killing with.

I had a guy trying to justify it to me because (paraphrasing) “a 6.5cm is more capable of killing at 600-800 yards than 25cm.”

My thoughts were just to scale PF and max weight inversely to each other, max 16# gun in a .30 cal, min .22 cal in a <=9# gun. Or something along those lines. You can do away with having two open classes, and include the 6’s and 25’s.

 

[Dobermann]

There are lots of people that talk about the issues with PRS/NRL and NRL Hunter was an effort to help some, and may have a little bit, however all the break off matches and clubs, etc. are PRS shooters, reinventing PRS.

Hi Form, as usual, I agree with most of what you've said.

But I think it's important to note two things - which I know you already know, but thought it was important to parse out here for others.

First, the PRS is only one part of the competition rifle world, and has become irrelevant to many (in the US). In some countries, such as NZ, almost all of our matches are field-based, and PRS is new and seen as a bit of an imported confection.

Second, PRS is only a relatively recent invention, and there were lots of field-based and/or movement-based comps before it - the Rifles Only Brawl, Snipers Hide Cup, Competition Dynamics matches, and many more.

A lot of us have zero interest in shooting PRS, but would be completely up for a match based on the parameters you listed.