Tenmile vs mark5hd

[Clark33]

Back on track, I had a MK5 5-25 for a few seasons now, even shot the buck in my photo at 500yds a few miles into the hills. Has been down some shitty roads, a few hike in back country hunts and even a tumble off my bench while cleaning... damn dogs. Hasn't lost zero yet, 8.5lb 6.5PRC, Seekins rings. No WTF moments yet

 

[OSU Fisher]

I do personally feel the mark5 5-25 is better and more durable then the 3.6-18. I may be wrong…. But I own 6 mark5’s. 4 of the big brothers and 2 of the little guys. I also live in Oregon and have a couple friends who work their… I’m not a fan boy. They have been great for me except one of the little ones. It took a little tumble and didn’t come out so well… I honestly love the 5-25’s. I’ve got 2 new builds in the works and will either be topped with more mark5’s, nx8 or atacr. Not sure yet.

 

[Lawnboi]

It certainly can be fun, the problem is to be competitive it demands things that are out of step with reality. I am all in on competition, and to be good at anything you must compete. There just isn’t anything for precision rifles that offers what USPSA does for pistols. It wasn’t always this way, it’s the design of precision matches that caused the switch. Wasn’t that long ago that a dude could literally take a stock CTR in 6.5 or even 308 and win local matches, and truthfully major matches. The biggest difference is in three things- weight of the rifles due to ridiculous par times, tripods, and stages designed as barricade benchrest.

Time plus or hit factor scoring would near totally remove the silliness of it.

Back off topic, have you shot any of the nrl hunter matches? I’d like to make one but anything close is wrong timing for me. I’m hoping we get some 1 day nrl hunter matches.

I’d agree a lot could be fixed with prs. We are lucky enough here in wi to have an awesome venue to shoot and a md that sets up a pretty fun match.

 

[Helislacker]

It certainly can be fun, the problem is to be competitive it demands things that are out of step with reality. I am all in on competition, and to be good at anything you must compete. There just isn’t anything for precision rifles that offers what USPSA does for pistols. It wasn’t always this way, it’s the design of precision matches that caused the switch. Wasn’t that long ago that a dude could literally take a stock CTR in 6.5 or even 308 and win local matches, and truthfully major matches. The biggest difference is in three things- weight of the rifles due to ridiculous par times, tripods, and stages designed as barricade benchrest.

Time plus or hit factor scoring would near totally remove the silliness of it.

I’m hoping between NRL hunter and Comp Dynamics that this changes or at least these become just as popular. I stopped shooting comps for this reason. The ability to purchase, operate and aim a 26lb 6mm does not mean you are a proficient shooter. I’ve shot my hunting setup and have made top 10 before with it, but that was before everyone was shooting with weight kits.

 

[Formidilosus]

Back off topic, have you shot any of the nrl hunter matches? I’d like to make one but anything close is wrong timing for me. I’m hoping we get some 1 day nrl hunter matches.

I’d agree a lot could be fixed with prs. We are lucky enough here in wi to have an awesome venue to shoot and a md that sets up a pretty fun match.

I haven’t shot NRL, buddies have and I probably will this year. While better, the same issues come up- 12lbs is “light”? Calibers and cartridges that people hunt with can’t be used due to power factor? Tripods, etc. etc. Again, I haven’t shot any, that’s just what had been relayed to me.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m hoping between NRL hunter and Comp Dynamics that this changes or at least these become just as popular. I stopped shooting comps for this reason. The ability to purchase, operate and aim a 26lb 6mm does not mean you are a proficient shooter. I’ve shot my hunting setup and have made top 10 before with it, but that was before everyone was shooting with weight kits.

Yep. A time plus match with divisions based on weight that is realistic (7lbs= light, 9lbs equal= standard, etc.) with target that are based on animals or realistic targets, from awkward positions would be fantastic.

 

[tdhanses]

I’m so confused. Snipers don’t shoot a lot?

Yeah shocked me to hear it directly, 90% of annual shooting is 100yds or less.

 

[Sled]

Yeah shocked me to hear it directly, 90% of annual shooting is 100yds or less.

Domestic sharp shooters spend most of their time within 300 yards and often 100 or less as you said. At least the ones I know do. The other guys get a bit more varied in their training.

 

[tdhanses]

Domestic sharp shooters spend most of their time within 300 yards and often 100 or less as you said. At least the ones I know do. The other guys get a bit more varied in their training.

It just shocked me, I expected more longer range shooting but then it made sense when they said access/time was the issue.

 

[Sled]

It just shocked me, I expected more longer range shooting but then it made sense when they said access/time was the issue.

Good training grounds can be tough to come by. You probably saw the National Forests in the PNW recently got closed to for training. I'm humbled to be able to help facilitate some of their training.

 

[Dobermann]

Yep. A time plus match with divisions based on weight that is realistic (7lbs= light, 9lbs equal= standard, etc.) with target that are based on animals or realistic targets, from awkward positions would be fantastic.

Well ... now that we keep getting off topic ...

There's an interesting debate going on in the precision shooting world now about both courses of fire / match design, and rifle weight.

Jacob, Frank, Scott S, Travis, and Phil have contributed to this discussion publicly, and there's a lot of regular shooters in the background actively involved.

In short, most agree that PRS is pretty contrived. And there's a real shift of interest to more "field"-style matches, whether that's NRL Hunter, Competition Dynamics, Snipers Hide Cup, Assassin's Way, SAC, and others. (FWIW, field matches are the majority of matches in NZ.)

What I'd like to see more about is a discussion of the relationship of each - the obvious aspect is mentioned (less weight is easier to carry around), but it seems there's more that is relevant - such as what's the various weightings between rifle weight for field carry and recoil management? What about stages that require off-hand shots? What does doing away with barricades mean in terms of what should and shouldn't be included in a rifle? And so on.

Some data points on rifle weight:

Frank has also led a discussion about the need for lighter rifles. He has suggested a different kind of modern comp, that would have 19lbs as the "Limited Class" limit (rifle as carried, except mag or sling).

However, he recently mentioned in a podcast going back to some of his early builds for field comps - and almost all of them, with scope, came in at around 15lbs. His first GAP team rifle, scoped with an S&B 5-25 was 10.7 lb - and comments on how now that would be considered very light weight. Again, this was before the silliness of weighted rifles for "take three steps and shoot" PRS games - these were for field matches with hiking and/or running between stages.

Curiously, I recently tried to do a "light-ish weight" comp build - not trying to be lightweight as such, but consciously not wanting added weight kits, a bull barrel, 56 mm scope, and so on. This "middle path" included CTR action and barrel in 6.5 Creed, KRG X-Ray (not as heavy as the Whiskey), Bushnell XRS II (4.5-30 x 50 - so not a 56 mm objective), Ckye Pod, fairly light direct-thread suppressor, and Rifles Only Carbine Sling - so, complete rifle as carried, no mag ... and it came in right at 15lbs too.

For other reference points, Chris Way said his rifle for SAC was 17lbs, but he was wanting to get to 16lbs, "but 12 or 13 would be good". Mike Lilly's first build for NRL Hunter was 14 lb, 12 oz; his second was 11.8 lbs. For both of these guys, I don't know if they're just quoting rifle and scope, or including bipod, sling, etc.

And I think it one podcast, Travis said the Open Light limit was 12lbs, Open Heavy 16lbs.

But in discussing Assassin's Way, Jacob said explicitly that he wouldn't recommend one of the modern heavy gamer guns, or even a classic field sniper rifle (such as an AI), but more of a hunting rig. I haven't got the exact quote to hand, and want to ask him more about his weight suggestions here ... but thought it was an interesting suggestion.

I started thinking about how I could get less than my existing 15lbs. If I dropped from the X-Ray to a Bravo, the XRSII to the LRTS 4.5-18x44, and didn't run an Arca rail, I'd only get a savings of about 1.3 lbs - or about 13.7 lbs total. So, if wanting to get lighter and keep the Bravo, the only real options would be a carbon barrel (or stock T3X Lite), or an ultralight bipod.

All that to say - Form, what would you be running to get to 7 or 9 lbs? I'm assuming a Bravo will be the stock choice, so what barrel and optic is going to keep you under these weights?

 

[Formidilosus]

All that to say - Form, what would you be running to get to 7 or 9 lbs? I'm assuming a Bravo will be the stock choice, so what barrel and optic is going to keep you under these weights?

7-9lbs with 10’ish Ft-lbs if recoil or more (6mm level), starts having fall offs in shootability. Of course one can shoot a 8lb 6.5 CM well, but form, position, etc. become quite critical even suppressed. With a 6.5 cm level recoil, a well designed 9-11lb rifle is a comfortable spot.
The T3 Lite with 20” barrel in 6mm, 6.5, or 308 with suppressor and 20-24oz scope and lighter bipod will be right at the 12lb mark, take the bipod off and your in the 10lb range. That setup is an extremely solid field rifle, and is way more practical as a general purpose mid to longe range, all around tool than the PRS things being built and used now.

Weight is important and hit rates are important. If one can think of the general purpose filed rifle as a 0-800 yard capability, with possibility to push to 1,000-1,200 in emergencies, then a 6mm to 6.5mm mid pack cartridge, and weight make a hard case to argue against. While a 8lb all up rifle is great to carry, the stock designs do not allow for as much shootability as a chassis. So adding 1-2lbs starts to make sense and be worth it.


A 10-11lb suppressed, compact, 6mm or 6.5mm is extremely hard to top from a portability/shootability/lethality view. It why almost everyone I’m around has ended up there.

6.5 CM, Sub 10lbs as it sits, has killed repeatedly out to 801 yards, and is competent at 1,200 with a spotter.



6.5 PRC, Sub 12lbs (a bit heavy barrel), has killed without issue to 910 yards, and is a legit 1,300 yard rifle.




Left is 11.5lb 6mm, right is 8.5lb 6.5 cm, both right after killing elk past 600 yards. The light 6.5cm is shootable- but is right at the edge of being just a touch critical.

 

[SDHNTR]

7-9lbs with 10’ish Ft-lbs if recoil or more (6mm level), starts having fall offs in shootability. Of course one can shoot a 8lb 6.5 CM well, but form, position, etc. become quite critical even suppressed. With a 6.5 cm level recoil, a well designed 9-11lb rifle is a comfortable spot.
The T3 Lite with 20” barrel in 6mm, 6.5, or 308 with suppressor and 20-24oz scope and lighter bipod will be right at the 12lb mark, take the bipod off and your in the 10lb range. That setup is an extremely solid field rifle, and is way more practical as a general purpose mid to longe range, all around tool than the PRS things being built and used now.

Weight is important and hit rates are important. If one can think of the general purpose filed rifle as a 0-800 yard capability, with possibility to push to 1,000-1,200 in emergencies, then a 6mm to 6.5mm mid pack cartridge, and weight make a hard case to argue against. While a 8lb all up rifle is great to carry, the stock designs do not allow for as much shootability as a chassis. So adding 1-2lbs starts to make sense and be worth it.


A 10-11lb suppressed, compact, 6mm or 6.5mm is extremely hard to top from a portability/shootability/lethality view. It why almost everyone I’m around has ended up there.

6.5 CM, Sub 10lbs as it sits, has killed repeatedly out to 801 yards, and is competent at 1,200 with a spotter.
View attachment 385993


6.5 PRC, Sub 12lbs (a bit heavy barrel), has killed without issue to 910 yards, and is a legit 1,300 yard rifle.
View attachment 385994



Left is 11.5lb 6mm, right is 8.5lb 6.5 cm, both right after killing elk past 600 yards. The light 6.5cm is shootable- but is right at the edge of being just a touch critical.
View attachment 385995

20-24 ounce scope? I would have guessed a NXS, but doesn’t sound like it though. What are you putting on your hunting gun?

 

[Formidilosus]

20-24 ounce scope? I would have guessed a NXS, but doesn’t sound like it though. What are you putting on your hunting gun?

The ones in the pictures. Most often a 6x or 3-9x SWFA.

 

[Dobermann]

7-9lbs with 10’ish Ft-lbs if recoil or more (6mm level), starts having fall offs in shootability ...

With a 6.5 cm level recoil, a well designed 9-11lb rifle is a comfortable spot.
The T3 Lite with 20” barrel in 6mm, 6.5, or 308 with suppressor and 20-24oz scope and lighter bipod will be right at the 12lb mark, take the bipod off and your in the 10lb range ...

A 10-11lb suppressed, compact, 6mm or 6.5mm is extremely hard to top from a portability/shootability/lethality view. It why almost everyone I’m around has ended up there.

Thanks Form.

That really shows how critical the scope weight is if "making weight" for this scenario.

And why the SWFA works. My LRHS 3-12 x 44 is at the "bleeding edge" of this at 25.75 oz (actual wt, no s/shade; 26.74 oz with s/shade - both have no throw lever. My LRTS 3-12 x 44 is 27.55 oz actual with s/shade and built-in throw lever. And you said Ryan weighed the Tenmile at 24.6 oz.

Of course, it's all about the overall package, and don't want to be vaulting over mouse turds (!), but that once again shows us that there's currently not a lot of reliable scopes in that ballpark.

(And again makes me wonder how the ZP5 fits into this scenario ...)

 

[HaydenLane]

Have you ever been in the military? Have you gone through the scout sniper program or had any special forces sniper training?

You're trying to tell us that the people in the military who's sole job is being a sniper doesn't practice their craft even though their life depends on it?

That’s what two former scout sniper instructors tell you at least once a month if you listen to MDS.

 

[Formidilosus]

(And again makes me wonder how the ZP5 fits into this scenario ...)

Increased capability at the cost of weight. I can’t justify them on every rifle, but it’ll certainly be on the main rifle.

 

[Jimbee]

7-9lbs with 10’ish Ft-lbs if recoil or more (6mm level), starts having fall offs in shootability. Of course one can shoot a 8lb 6.5 CM well, but form, position, etc. become quite critical even suppressed. With a 6.5 cm level recoil, a well designed 9-11lb rifle is a comfortable spot.
The T3 Lite with 20” barrel in 6mm, 6.5, or 308 with suppressor and 20-24oz scope and lighter bipod will be right at the 12lb mark, take the bipod off and your in the 10lb range. That setup is an extremely solid field rifle, and is way more practical as a general purpose mid to longe range, all around tool than the PRS things being built and used now.

Weight is important and hit rates are important. If one can think of the general purpose filed rifle as a 0-800 yard capability, with possibility to push to 1,000-1,200 in emergencies, then a 6mm to 6.5mm mid pack cartridge, and weight make a hard case to argue against. While a 8lb all up rifle is great to carry, the stock designs do not allow for as much shootability as a chassis. So adding 1-2lbs starts to make sense and be worth it.


A 10-11lb suppressed, compact, 6mm or 6.5mm is extremely hard to top from a portability/shootability/lethality view. It why almost everyone I’m around has ended up there.

6.5 CM, Sub 10lbs as it sits, has killed repeatedly out to 801 yards, and is competent at 1,200 with a spotter.
View attachment 385993


6.5 PRC, Sub 12lbs (a bit heavy barrel), has killed without issue to 910 yards, and is a legit 1,300 yard rifle.
View attachment 385994



Left is 11.5lb 6mm, right is 8.5lb 6.5 cm, both right after killing elk past 600 yards. The light 6.5cm is shootable- but is right at the edge of being just a touch critical.
View attachment 385995

What kind of 6mm bullet and velocity is needed to kill stuff at 1000+ yards?

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks Form.

That really shows how critical the scope weight is if "making weight" for this scenario.

Also, an interesting option that will probably be played with this year is the new Howa Carbon Mini at 4lbs 10oz. That in 6 ARC, with a suppressor, higher butt plate, a light cheek piece, and a decent scope will be sub 7lbs all in, and with the recoil level should be quite shootable.

 

[Formidilosus]

What kind of 6mm bullet and velocity is needed to kill stuff at 1000+ yards?

Depends on the bullet. I wouldn’t say that a 6mm is the ideal true long range caliber, but not due to terminal performance. If someone is legitimately going to be taking 1,000+ shots at big game, a purpose built heavy, 30 or 338 cal is the way. Not for terminal reasons, but because when you miss- and you will (often), the bigger bullet offers more splash to see. True long range hunting is not general purpose hurnung, and the gear and personalities of those doing so need to reflect that. Hunting at long range requires much more to competently use in the field than people give credit it for.