SWFA, what’s the deal?

[Billy Goat]

I don't intend to abuse my stuff, but I do. That's what I feel is the basis for the Form tests.


When walking I don't intend to trip, but I do sometimes. Guns have gotten dropped, slings have actually broken, I'd like to have something that can survive that if it's an option.

I spent a long time just expecting to need to re-zero after a drop.

 

[prm]

Nightforce has done some videos throwing their scopes, hammering in nails, etc.


If SWFA goes China I’m out. They aren’t that stupid, are they?


I find Ilya has some good technical and optical discussions. Never heard him discuss ruggedness.

I also don’t intend to damage my stuff, but I find ways… This year I was Mule Deer hunting and leaned my Barrett with Trijicon 2-10x36 against the side of my tailgate. As I did it, I even said to myself that is a bad idea. Sure enough, 5 minutes later I closed the tailgate and the rifle falls landing directly on the top of the scope, dial first, on a large rock imbedded in packed soil. Fortunately there was no change in POI.

 

[Dobermann]

Disregard Ilya if you want... I suppose there's only room for one optics guru around here. But for what it's worth he's not the only one who speaks well of the Helos in terms of holding up to hard use.

As far as "baseless, ill-mannered comments" go, I think he was always fairly cautious in questioning Formidilosus's findings in some of the more heated threads over on some other forums. It was only ill-mannered if you consider any questioning at all to be ill-mannered. It's kind of funny considering that Form is perhaps the most passive-aggressive poster on this site.

As far as SWFA goes - if you are willing to buy used, you can typically find them in good shape without too much of a markup in my experience. The 6x42 with mil quad reticle is my favorite scope out there.

Others have really covered the substantive issues, but just to clarify a few things about where I'm coming from personally ... this is not so much a direct response to coloradoan, but to give necessary context for others who might be reading - especially those who are new to the 'Slide and/or this issue:

I don't/didn't disregard Ilya. He clearly knows a lot about optics, optics manufacturing, and how eyes and brains process information. I've actually learnt a lot from him. I'm just clear about what he does - and doesn't - cover in his optic reviews.

I'm not after a "guru", and I doubt most on Rokslide are. I have some different opinions from Form, but he's always taken the time to answer questions I have with civility. And - here's an important distinction - when I hear Form talk in what seems like fairly absolute terms, it's usually based on his direct experience, and he can usually present evidence to back up what he's saying. Ilya, on the other hand, often speaks in absolutes about things that, if you listen carefully, are actually only his opinions, preferences, and so on. There's a big difference there in terms of not only style but context/credibility of the positions expressed.

As for my use of "ill-mannered", the most common term I hear Ilya use about (other) people he disagrees with is "He doesn't know his ass from his elbow" ... it might just be his style, but personally, I don't find it particularly useful. While I don't think he used that pat phrase when speaking about Form, if you listen carefully, he did cast some aspersions about Form (even though it was about things he acknowledged he didn't actually know about); this was unnecessary in the context of what he was talking about, but appeared to be designed to undermine Form's credibility. It was not only therefore an ad hominem attack, but also a bait-and-switch from the issues being discussed.

Most importantly, I don't think any of us here need or want to turn this into a "Form vs Ilya" issue - Form does what he does, Ilya does what he does. Their expertise, experience, and "missions" are clearly different.

How about we all learn what we can from whom we want, and leave aside that which we don't find useful?

 

[Ens Entium]

Others have really covered the substantive issues, but just to clarify a few things about where I'm coming from personally ... this is not so much a direct response to coloradoan, but to give necessary context for others who might be reading - especially those who are new to the 'Slide and/or this issue:

I don't/didn't disregard Ilya. He clearly knows a lot about optics, optics manufacturing, and how eyes and brains process information. I've actually learnt a lot from him. I'm just clear about what he does - and doesn't - cover in his optic reviews.

I'm not after a "guru", and I doubt most on Rokslide are. I have some different opinions from Form, but he's always taken the time to answer questions I have with civility. And - here's an important distinction - when I hear Form talk in what seems like fairly absolute terms, it's usually based on his direct experience, and he can usually present evidence to back up what he's saying. Ilya, on the other hand, often speaks in absolutes about things that, if you listen carefully, are actually only his opinions, preferences, and so on. There's a big difference there in terms of not only style but context/credibility of the positions expressed.

As for my use of "ill-mannered", the most common term I hear Ilya use about (other) people he disagrees with is "He doesn't know his ass from his elbow" ... it might just be his style, but personally, I don't find it particularly useful. While I don't think he used that pat phrase when speaking about Form, if you listen carefully, he did cast some aspersions about Form (even though it was about things he acknowledged he didn't actually know about); this was unnecessary in the context of what he was talking about, but appeared to be designed to undermine Form's credibility. It was not only therefore an ad hominem attack, but also a bait-and-switch from the issues being discussed.

Most importantly, I don't think any of us here need or want to turn this into a "Form vs Ilya" issue - Form does what he does, Ilya does what he does. Their expertise, experience, and "missions" are clearly different.

How about we all learn what we can from whom we want, and leave aside that which we don't find useful?

As a quality engineer I consider both Ilya and Form data. I consider the source of the data and include my own personal experience to come to my own conclusions. I appreciate both of them sharing their experiences.

Form's mantra of try it for yourself is something I have incorporated with my equipment to have confidence when hunting season comes around.

 

[sndmn11]

I don't intend to abuse my stuff, but I do. That's what I feel is the basis for the Form tests.



I spent a long time just expecting to need to re-zero after a drop.

I also don’t intend to damage my stuff, but I find ways… This year I was Mule Deer hunting and leaned my Barrett with Trijicon 2-10x36 against the side of my tailgate. As I did it, I even said to myself that is a bad idea. Sure enough, 5 minutes later I closed the tailgate and the rifle falls landing directly on the top of the scope, dial first, on a large rock imbedded in packed soil. Fortunately there was no change in POI.

I think the biggest benefit to his process is for the people who don't shoot much, and also take great care of their stuff. Those are the folks who have no reason to believe they might be hunting with a rifle that floated off of zero because nothing remarkable happened other than driving from A to B.

The caveat to that statement though, is you have to buy into his reasoning and purpose behind the process he developed. Some people don't and some do.

For the most part, nobody treats their equipment poorly, but when you do a semi-controlled test that goes beyond the everyday and see success, it sure does give a lot of confidence.

 

[JGRaider]

Amen. We will never get the peanut gallery to understand this, no matter what. It's why we have latched onto his testing, because nobody will do it. Even most manufacturers won't do the testing.

Everybody is a hard a$$ rambo on the internet. but I've never seen anybody show the proof. There's a guy on (I think???) 24hr Campfire (Big Stick, IIRC), who has posted videos of him throwing his rifles and picking them up and shooting at a target. But he and Form are the only "lay-people" doing this sort of thing who aren't being paid to say stuff about a product.

Call it abuse, call it stupid, I respect Form for putting the info out there unapologetically. He's got nothing to lose or gain from showing it. He could hide it and just keep living his life and keep killing animals at an impressive rate and never share the info. But instead he shares what he knows, despite the detractors, and is just unapologetically himself.

I, for one, am glad somebody puts this info out there so I can short-circuit my own research and setups.

And Big Stick over on 24HCF is one who sings the praises of the Helos, and has shown pics of him owning and using about 10 samples. So we have two guys who test them the way you like to see (which is fine), with two very different opinions.

 

[nobody]

And Big Stick over on 24HCF is one who sings the praises of the Helos, and has shown pics of him owning and using about 10 samples. So we have two guys who test them the way you like to see (which is fine), with two very different opinions.

That's great to hear, and even more interesting that he has not had the failures that both Form and one other individual on here doing drop tests (maybe @sndmn11?) have experienced. Like you've said, it's up to us to interpret the info ourselves and sprinkle in our own applicable experiences. My Athlon experience was less than stellar, and when combined with what I've seen here, I recommend against them. But it is good to see that Stick's has held up.

 

[Rimrocks]

For all of you waiting on 3x9 scopes. I just had SWFA call and confirm my order I had placed in Nov. 2021 they are shipping them out. Now I just hope that I find the scope worth the wait. Going on a .270 my first attempt at dialing.

 

[sndmn11]

That's great to hear, and even more interesting that he has not had the failures that both Form and one other individual on here doing drop tests (maybe @sndmn11?) have experienced. Like you've said, it's up to us to interpret the info ourselves and sprinkle in our own applicable experiences. My Athlon experience was less than stellar, and when combined with what I've seen here, I recommend against them. But it is good to see that Stick's has held up.

Correct, the one I had broke something internally that wouldn't allow it to focus (dropped on a 3" memory foam pad), and Form's shifted more than a foot.

It sounds like he has an Arken coming up, and @ZackP might send me one as well.

 

[FSB12B]

Correct, the one I had broke something internally that wouldn't allow it to focus (dropped on a 3" memory foam pad), and Form's shifted more than a foot.

It sounds like he has an Arken coming up, and @ZackP might send me one as well.

I just placed an order for some SWFA's. We will see how the back order is.
I will be placing an order for the EPL4 as well. We will also see how that back order is!

@sndmn11 Which model will Form be receiving? I can always order a different model for you to test so we can cover more bases as well.

 

[slowelk]

Back when I cared about SWFA I had a couple of backorders and in-stock notifcations. Long ago I cancelled those backorders, but I did get a notification an hour or so ago that the 5-20 is back in stock.

 

[Huntr]

Just got a call from SWFA, my backordered 3-9 is in and shipping out to me.

 

[JFK]

Apparently they only got enough in to cover back orders. If you try to add one to your cart they are already saying out of stock and any order will just be another back order.

 

[Ens Entium]

Apparently they only got enough in to cover back orders. If you try to add one to your cart they are already saying out of stock and any order will just be another back order.

It might be worth giving them a call if you are still interested. I placed an order this month with the 30% off sale and was still able to get one from this shipment.

 

[Dobermann]

Apparently they only got enough in to cover back orders. If you try to add one to your cart they are already saying out of stock and any order will just be another back order.

Ilya mentioned some time ago - and I've since posted it here a lot - that that's common (and was made worse with Covid supply chain issues) ... so the way to go is simply to order and wait.

People who wait for them to show as in stock, may just keep getting pipped at the post by those who backordered.

 

[Team4LongGun]

What is nice is they reduced the price by $180 and honored the current price of $419

 

[Gorp2007]

Charge just hit my credit card, so looks like the 3-9 will be on the way shortly.

 

[wind gypsy]

Just got the call that my warrantied 3-9 will be shipping as well.

 

[id_jon]

I have a 3-9 on backorder, no charge or email yet. I'm just going to hope that they have a ton of orders to get through and I'll see it tomorrow.

 

[MuleyFever]

I back ordered a 3-9x on 12/8 and just got charged for it.