SWFA Alternative

[Shraggs]

Yep, I respect my equipment but I do use it…

I’m not interested in bashing, but several brands have all experienced this. my local group here, all grew up with checking zero before season…. That says a lot right. My informal tally over the years 80% of time they are adjusting zero…. Kinda accepted it seems. “Oh well just re zero, no biggie”. Obviously scopes still function, but here’s the thing —— when exactly is it that that scope will lose zero again, 3 months later, traveling on gravel road or was it the last shot of 19 rounds to re zero…

To be as fair and balanced, I’ll bet many zero changes season to season are incompetent shooters, bad form and mechanics. I feel, again from rokslide my shooting skill has elevated more in half a year than the previous 30.

Since trusting what I’ve read here, actually reaching out to others that were so gracious to learn more than what can be typed, I’m the proud owner of many swfa now, a few credo trijicons with a NF soon I hope! I purposefully never used my case with my tikka 223 and a 1-6 hd when I went west for a week in the mountains shooting every day. God awful rutted roads, etc. Most definitely took many more minor bumps and bangs that I would have never let happen before. I was validating. I have probably shot some 4 dozen 12 shoot zeros as part of practicing this summer and trueing up my final load to 800 yds. Not once did I see a shred of evidence I needed to adjust my scope.

You seem like you have experience and expertise, I respect that. So does Form. Collaboration seems better, alternative experience shared seems better than internet challenges - for us who yearn to grow. Outside of guns and hunting i certainty do have knowledge in the manufacturing world. Now, As a consultant it stuns me to see metrics firms use for either internal performance markers or product legitimacy/marketing that cannot be truly tied to judging either.

 

[TreeStandAthlete]

That’s all we can do. Learn from what we’ve experienced ourselves and make decisions.

That's probably the worst way you can do it. A sample size of 1 is insignificant to anyone unless they're buying that exact copy of scope X from you. It absolutely doesn't tell you much of anything about scope manufacturer X and their level of quality (even 6 9's of quality can and will produce at least a single bad copy).

The correct way to do it would be set up a standard of tests and subject a significant sample size of scopes to those tests, ideally conducted by an independent 3rd party and published publicly.

Now while I don't believe Form is testing the ideal sample size or using precise enough testing protocols for what you'd want if you were doing serious QA consulting, and I could be totally wrong on that, what he is publishing is absolutely more useful to a potential consumer than "I had 1 x model scope that lost zero at some point in time, maybe when Y happened to it" and as far as I can tell, outside of military trials, it's the best data on scope quality that I can find.

If anyone knows of better or even similar data please share it, I'd love more options than high $$ NF/Trijicon or backordered SWFAs.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

That's probably the worst way you can do it. A sample size of 1 is insignificant to anyone unless they're buying that exact copy of scope X from you. It absolutely doesn't tell you much of anything about scope manufacturer X and their level of quality (even 6 9's of quality can and will produce at least a single bad copy).

The correct way to do it would be set up a standard of tests and subject a significant sample size of scopes to those tests, ideally conducted by an independent 3rd party and published publicly.

Now while I don't believe Form is testing the ideal sample size or using precise enough testing protocols for what you'd want if you were doing serious QA consulting, and I could be totally wrong on that, what he is publishing is absolutely more useful to a potential consumer than "I had 1 x model scope that lost zero at some point in time, maybe when Y happened to it" and as far as I can tell, outside of military trials, it's the best data on scope quality that I can find.

If anyone knows of better or even similar data please share it, I'd love more options than high $$ NF/Trijicon or backordered SWFAs.

Completely disagree because what you stated does not exist. I don’t know what this “Form” you guys keep referring to is. Is this form available to look at online?

 

[Oregonmuley]

Completely disagree because what you stated does not exist. I don’t know what this “Form” you guys keep referring to is. Is this form available to look at online?

Formidilosus, he posts here on multiple forums and tests various scopes. See this thread:

Meopta Optika6 3-18x50mm FFP Field Evaluation

This scope has been a big deal online and with certain segments of the market since it was announced. A European company that historically makes very good optics, releasing 6x zoom range SFP and FFP scopes with locking turrets, illumination, decent reticles, etc. for $500-$700? That’s a first...

www.rokslide.com

 

[TreeStandAthlete]

Completely disagree because what you stated does not exist. I don’t know what this “Form” you guys keep referring to is. Is this form available to look at online?

I assure you statistical analysis very much does exist.

QUOTE="mxgsfmdpx, post: 2394392, member: 36592"]I don’t know what this “Form” you guys keep referring to is. Is this form available to look at online?[/QUOTE]

Form is @Formidilosus , the guy with the "silly" drop tests.

 

[svivian]

Lol this is a humorous thread for sure. If I am buying a scope over $1,000 and had to choose a tested durable scope versus finding out at the worst time during a hunt..... ooof hard choice on that one .

"Testing and making your own decisions" isn't really in everyone's budget, certainly not mine. If that was the case why have a forum like this for people to share their experiences? Accidents happen, I had my gun get bumped off of the table at the range a week before season as I always check my sight in. Luckily it was fine but what if it wasn't? Just go and buy a new scope and worry about it later? What if I am over an hour away from a place to buy one or they are closed?

Of course these situation are rare and I am glad they are. But, I want all the cards stacked in my favor when I am hunting and I would rather learn from someone with a lot more experience than myself than learn the hard and expensive way.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I assure you statistical analysis very much does exist.

QUOTE="mxgsfmdpx, post: 2394392, member: 36592"]I don’t know what this “Form” you guys keep referring to is. Is this form available to look at online?

Form is @Formidilosus , the guy with the "silly" drop tests.
[/QUOTE]
Okay yeah I’ve seen that users posts and have exchanged PMs. Seems like a solid guy but is still just another anonymous internet opinion to me. Again, I form my own opinions based on my own experiences with my own equipment. Internet is helpful for ideas and information gathering, thats it.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Having fun with the NF fan bois…
NF fan: “I only run NF scopes because I need 100% reliability.”

Observer: “But this is your kid’s Cricket rifle”.

NF fan: “Squirrel woods have the most dangerous terrain and our lives are always at risk. Haven’t you seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail? There are killer rabbits out there!!!!”.

————
NF makes a lot of sense for some hunts. But for most hunters and the hunts they do, NF is overkill.

At the end of the day, run whatever makes you sleep well at night.

 

[SDHNTR]

Somebody tell Nightforce to make us hunters some better reticle choices! Not everyone is a tactical operative!

Hell, I wish the basic Forceplex was still available! And available on more lines than just the SHV. Less is more for my style of hunting. Or, that reticle they made for Gunwerks years ago was the closest thing to acceptable for me, wish there was something close. The MOAR just doesn’t do it.

Oh, and shave 6-10oz in the process will ya! One can dream right!

A 22 oz or less 3-18x50 scope with Nightforce build quality and something like a Swaro 4W or Leupold Windplex would be my dream hunting scope! I know it’s doable with today’s materials, guess the market demand just isn’t there. Everyone would rather play Rambo.

 

[SDHNTR]

Also, FWIW, I own dozens of scoped rifles, have hunted big game for 30+ years and have killed hundreds of critters. I own or have owned scopes of all types and makes. I’ve taken my share of slips and falls, I’ve had rifles beat around in trucks and on quads, even boats. I’ve had guns tip over and fall after being leaned against something. I’ve dropped them accidentally. I’ve had them fall off my shoulder from a broken sling mount. I’ve had them fall out the truck. Through all that, I’ve never once had a scope of any sort lose zero. I generally buy quality scopes from mid price range on up and I also use quality mounts and am meticulous with my mounting process. Never had a problem. Yes, I’ve seen problems with friends and other set ups, but they were always due to sub standard mounts, incorrect mounting procedures, or cheapo budget scopes to begin with.

The take away, these torture tests are fun to read and great if they give you peace of mind. But in all reality, for the average hunter, if you buy decent stuff, install it properly, and don’t intentionally abuse it, you are unlikely to have a problem. Ever.

 

[freddyG]

Also, FWIW, I own dozens of scoped rifles, have hunted big game for 30+ years and have killed hundreds of critters. I own or have owned scopes of all types and makes. I’ve taken my share of slips and falls, I’ve had rifles beat around in trucks and on quads, even boats. I’ve had guns tip over and fall after being leaned against something. I’ve dropped them accidentally. I’ve had them fall off my shoulder from a broken sling mount. I’ve had them fall out the truck. Through all that, I’ve never once had a scope of any sort lose zero. I generally buy quality scopes from mid price range on up and I also use quality mounts and am meticulous with my mounting process. Never had a problem. Yes, I’ve seen problems with friends and other set ups, but they were always due to sub standard mounts, incorrect mounting procedures, or cheapo budget scopes to begin with.

The take away, these torture tests are fun to read and great if they give you peace of mind. But in all reality, for the average hunter, if you buy decent stuff, install it properly, and don’t intentionally abuse it, you are unlikely to have a problem. Ever.

What scopes have you used for 30 years that haven’t lost zero? How much do you shoot them? I have the exact opposite experience. Some of the lower tier Leupolds can lose their zero because a fly lands on them.

Like posted above, there is a reason that most religiously check to make sure their rifle is still zero’d. Once you buy a scope that functions like it’s supposed to, checking zero is history.

 

[SDHNTR]

What scopes have you used for 30 years that haven’t lost zero? How much do you shoot them? I have the exact opposite experience. Some of the lower tier Leupolds can lose their zero because a fly lands on them.

Like posted above, there is a reason that most religiously check to make sure their rifle is still zero’d. Once you buy a scope that functions like it’s supposed to, checking zero is history.

I’m not saying all them are 30 years old. Only that I’ve been collecting and using rifles and scopes for hunting for 30+ years. I’ve got a bunch of Leupolds but they are mostly 15+ years old. Most are Vari X2’s and 3’s and I think a couple fixed M8’s in there. I only have one newer VX3i that’s 3-4 years old. But I don’t dial with any Leupolds. Add in several Meoptas, a couple Zeiss Conquest, a couple Zeiss V6, a bunch of Swarovskis, a Khales, one Nightforce SHV, a Tract Toric, a Weaver Grand Slam, and a Trijicon something or other (the newer no frills one). No zero retention problems with any of em.

I have some that I shoot a lot and some that go years without being touched. No I’m not talking about thousands of rounds a year, but enough to stay proficient and kill stuff. That’s what interests me. I only shoot to hunt, or practice to hunt. I seldom shoot just to shoot. And when I do, it’s a .22 or .17 or maybe .223.

 

[BjornF16]

IF I were a one rifle hunter, it would wear the most reliable and durable scope I could afford (weight and size dependent of course).

But I’m not a one rifle hunter/shooter. For my Texas hunts, I can afford to have the ”suspect” Vortex, Zeiss, (or whatever) scope as I always have a backup rifle readily available. But if I’m in the backcountry with one rifle and am unable to haul in a backup, then I’m going to hedge my bets.

I have several Viper PSTs, a Razor LHT, a couple of NF, a SS HD 5-20, Zeiss, Leupold, Minox and a couple of Credo’s. Hopefully soon will be adding a couple of SWFA scopes.

I’ve certainly learned a lot from the various cast of characters here on Rokslide. I’ve learned some of the lessons discussed here myself. I wouldn’t want to have to learn everything on my own. We’re supposed to blessed with the gift of critical thinking. I’ve humbled myself and have critically analyzed much written here and have adopted or am adopting various “practices”.

I have a Credo 2-10x36 FFP mrad enroute as I type. I have a Credo HX already...I like that scope but it is SFP. The reticle isn’t perfect. I prefer the HX over the LHT. I also like the SWFA SS HD 5-20 FFP, but that is a heavy scope (heavier than my NX8).

I’m going to drink the kool-aid, at least temporarily, and try the SWFA 3-9 and 6x (if I can ever get hold of one). But until then, I’ll put my Credo’s on mountain rifles and leave the others for range time, plains, or Texas style hunting.

 

[Oregonmuley]

Somebody tell Nightforce to make us hunters some better reticle choices! Not everyone is a tactical operative!

Hell, I wish the basic Forceplex was still available! And available on more lines than just the SHV. Less is more for my style of hunting. Or, that reticle they made for Gunwerks years ago was the closest thing to acceptable for me, wish there was something close. The MOAR just doesn’t do it.

Oh, and shave 6-10oz in the process will ya! One can dream right!

A 22 oz or less 3-18x50 scope with Nightforce build quality and something like a Swaro 4W or Leupold Windplex would be my dream hunting scope! I know it’s doable with today’s materials, guess the market demand just isn’t there. Everyone would rather play Rambo.

Serious question for you, this coming from someone that thought the Leopold long range duplex was high-tech. But I have used that reticle on my go to antelope rifle which has taken 30+ antelope. Recently have had scope A D D and swapped out several scopes and replaced them with NF Compacts with the MOAR reticle, I think for a hunting reticle its not terrible and I'm really starting to like it better than most anything else out there. It's easy to see even in low light and for me anyway it just works, and in a bullet proof scope that comes in at 20.5 ozs.

 

[sndmn11]

Serious question for you, this coming from someone that thought the Leopold long range duplex was high-tech. But I have used that reticle on my go to antelope rifle which has taken 30+ antelope. Recently have had scope A D D and swapped out several scopes and replaced them with NF Compacts with the MOAR reticle, I think for a hunting reticle its not terrible and I'm really starting to like it better than most anything else out there. It's easy to see even in low light and for me anyway it just works, and in a bullet proof scope that comes in at 20.5 ozs.

I can't really think of myself having any scope in the future without mill hash marks. For me it is relaxing to see because I know if I dial for distance and still see half mil or more on the vitals, I have some leway and just have to execute the trigger press. A hashed reticle also allows me to hold over/under for distance, or off for wind. I think of it sort of like having a five pin bow sight that I can also roll for yardage.

 

[BjornF16]

Serious question for you, this coming from someone that thought the Leopold long range duplex was high-tech. But I have used that reticle on my go to antelope rifle which has taken 30+ antelope. Recently have had scope A D D and swapped out several scopes and replaced them with NF Compacts with the MOAR reticle, I think for a hunting reticle its not terrible and I'm really starting to like it better than most anything else out there. It's easy to see even in low light and for me anyway it just works, and in a bullet proof scope that comes in at 20.5 ozs.

I must have missed the question in there...

 

[ETtikka]

IF I were a one rifle hunter, it would wear the most reliable and durable scope I could afford (weight and size dependent of course).

But I’m not a one rifle hunter/shooter. For my Texas hunts, I can afford to have the ”suspect” Vortex, Zeiss, (or whatever) scope as I always have a backup rifle readily available. But if I’m in the backcountry with one rifle and am unable to haul in a backup, then I’m going to hedge my bets.

I have several Viper PSTs, a Razor LHT, a couple of NF, a SS HD 5-20, Zeiss, Leupold, Minox and a couple of Credo’s. Hopefully soon will be adding a couple of SWFA scopes.

I’ve certainly learned a lot from the various cast of characters here on Rokslide. I’ve learned some of the lessons discussed here myself. I wouldn’t want to have to learn everything on my own. We’re supposed to blessed with the gift of critical thinking. I’ve humbled myself and have critically analyzed much written here and have adopted or am adopting various “practices”.

I have a Credo 2-10x36 FFP mrad enroute as I type. I have a Credo HX already...I like that scope but it is SFP. The reticle isn’t perfect. I prefer the HX over the LHT. I also like the SWFA SS HD 5-20 FFP, but that is a heavy scope (heavier than my NX8).

I’m going to drink the kool-aid, at least temporarily, and try the SWFA 3-9 and 6x (if I can ever get hold of one). But until then, I’ll put my Credo’s on mountain rifles and leave the others for range time, plains, or Texas style hunting.

Let us know how the credo 2-10 works out

 

[SDHNTR]

Serious question for you, this coming from someone that thought the Leopold long range duplex was high-tech. But I have used that reticle on my go to antelope rifle which has taken 30+ antelope. Recently have had scope A D D and swapped out several scopes and replaced them with NF Compacts with the MOAR reticle, I think for a hunting reticle its not terrible and I'm really starting to like it better than most anything else out there. It's easy to see even in low light and for me anyway it just works, and in a bullet proof scope that comes in at 20.5 ozs.

My brain freaks out! Not ashamed to admit it. Decades of just seeing crosshairs is hard to unwind. I was gonna shoot a pig with my buddy’s gun and a MOAR on some giant NF just to see if I could do it and because I was curious about the .300 prc. I looked through the thing, the pig started walking and I spazzed out. What do I do now? What is all this shit? How do I use it? Wtf do I do now? I let it walk away.

Even shooting a gong with that gun, my engagement time was twice as long to get a shot off. For my pee brain it’s just to much to see in my view which makes my brain get to over thinking instead of reacting. Just me, I can twist a dial a lot faster than I can dope dots. I’m sure if I practiced I could get it down better, but there’s that thing about old dogs and tricks.

 

[BjornF16]

Let us know how the credo 2-10 works out

Well, one thing for sure...I won’t be doing any drop testing

But yes...I will put it through some paces with low light and dialing.

Side note: I had settled on NXS compact but they are 39 week lead time when ordering through NF with MIL discount. I say “settled” because I really wanted FFP. The Credo 2-10 was my second choice, mainly for lack of parallax adjustment.

 

[scfreeman66]

My brain freaks out! Not ashamed to admit it. Decades of just seeing crosshairs is hard to unwind. I was gonna shoot a pig with my buddy’s gun and a MOAR on some giant NF just to see if I could do it and because I was curious about the .300 prc. I looked through the thing, the pig started walking and I spazzed out. What do I do now? What is all this shit? How do I use it? Wtf do I do now? I let it walk away.

Even shooting a gong with that gun, my engagement time was twice as long to get a shot off. For my pee brain it’s just to much to see in my view which makes my brain get to over thinking instead of reacting. Just me, I can twist a dial a lot faster than I can dope dots. I’m sure if I practiced I could get it down better, but there’s that thing about old dogs and tricks.

I'm on your boat with this one....way too much going on with that for me. I want simple and effective in a moment of high stress...
It's kept me from buying and trying a NF no matter how good they are, I can't get passed the business of the reticle

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