Struggling with cartridge selection.

[ozyclint]

I was thinking 358win before you said it yourself. 35Whelan might also be a good choice. Since you reload you could shoot reduced loads if recoil is an issue.

Load it with a soft point flat or round nose bullet just to piss off the high BC queens.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

I have only had one bang flop in about 10 deer I have taken with 35 cal rifles. That one was a spine shot and he didn’t move, just dropped. The rest all ran as would be expected for a non cns shot. This is what started me down the rabbit hole of how animals die and why I now believe that any caliber can work with the right bullet delivered at the right speed. Do 35 cal rifles work, yes, quite well, but I would use a 6mm or 25 cal if I was allowed to. I shoot better with lower recoil.

Oh I 100% agree on both your statements. I am currently only shooting .223 for all the reasons you mentioned. I see no reason to go above 6mm unless the state restricts it. But it sounds like OP wants something large that has a certain cool/fun factor. If he I was just recommending a practical hunting rifle, I’d tell him to just keep the .243.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Totally in the opposite direction from which I normally go, but the cartridge that I have seen produce the absolute most bang flops is the 9.3x74R or 9.3x62 with the Speer 270-grain bullet. At around 2600 FPS, that bullet will kill anything thin-skinned anywhere in the world. It drops whitetails like they have been headshot. It can kill them from any angle. It also always produces an exit wound so that you can track it the one or two feet it rolls down the hill when hit. Double-lung wound channels look about like a 77-grain TMK.

The JP Sauer Luftwaffe drilling we used also had 2x 12-gauge. Absolutely the best brush gun ever made. And it’s hard to beat for the cool factor. If you can find one, I highly recommend it.

Or just keep using that .243…


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Okie_Poke]

I picked up a Tikka T3x

I’ve narrowed it down to a short barreled lightweight brush stalker running heavies for whitetail.

The 358win is winning the fight so far. Thoughts?

It’s really hard for me to recommend you change from the 243 for whitetail. But, I get that sometimes more bigger is more better, even if it’s not super practical. I’m still finishing up a 35 Whelen build myself.

If you want to keep your short action and get a medium bore thumper, go 338 Federal. (If you dont' mind new mags and swapping the bolt stop, then 35 Whelen). The 358 in a short barrel is going to be pretty slow. So is the 338, but slightly less so. Source your brass and dies before getting the barrel. There are far more practical choices (243, 308), but who cares? Build something different.

ETA: If you do go for a thumper in a lightweight Tikka, replacing at least the recoil pad if not the stock is highly recommended. My Whelen kicks aplenty and it weighs over 9 pounds in a Boyd's hardwood stock.

 

[FredH]

You seem to put more stock in what the bullet looks like when it is done rather than how quickly the animal dies. Got it.

Sure just like you want whats left of your bullet to look like lead and jacket material confetti. And by the way I have killed a lot of animals quickly with regular cup and core hunting bullets.

 

[Ringbill27]

It’s really hard for me to recommend you change from the 243 for whitetail. But, I get that sometimes more bigger is more better, even if it’s not super practical. I’m still finishing up a 35 Whelen build myself.

If you want to keep your short action and get a medium bore thumper, go 338 Federal. (If you dont' mind new mags and swapping the bolt stop, then 35 Whelen). The 358 in a short barrel is going to be pretty slow. So is the 338, but slightly less so. Source your brass and dies before getting the barrel. There are far more practical choices (243, 308), but who cares? Build something different.

ETA: If you do go for a thumper in a lightweight Tikka, replacing at least the recoil pad if not the stock is highly recommended. My Whelen kicks aplenty and it weighs over 9 pounds in a Boyd's hardwood stock.

I’m to the point between 338 fed and 358win. Still leaning toward 358 but not sure yet. This rifle is a 100yd brush stalker not brush buster. I like the tikka stock with a limb saver on it.

 

[Bluefish]

I’m to the point between 338 fed and 358win. Still leaning toward 358 but not sure yet. This rifle is a 100yd brush stalker not brush buster. I like the tikka stock with a limb saver on it.

If I am shooting sub 100 yards in thick woods, 45-70 subsonic with maker 400 or 500 g. Low recoil, suppresses well and devastating on deer. Imho the problem with subs is drop past 100 yards. It gets big fast. You really need to range once past 100 even though the 400/500g are plenty effective out past 500 yards. Wont fit the criteria of a tikka action, but a good excuse for a lever action.

Maker does a 250 and 280g .355” sub, but require a 1:10 twist which is faster than most 35 cal rifles. Standard is usually 1:16. I have considered them for a fast twist 360 bh or 358 socom.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

If I am shooting sub 100 yards in thick woods, 45-70 subsonic with maker 400 or 500 g. Low recoil, suppresses well and devastating on deer. Imho the problem with subs is drop past 100 yards. It gets big fast. You really need to range once past 100 even though the 400/500g are plenty effective out past 500 yards. Wont fit the criteria of a tikka action, but a good excuse for a lever action.

Maker does a 250 and 280g .355” sub, but require a 1:10 twist which is faster than most 35 cal rifles. Standard is usually 1:16. I have considered them for a fast twist 360 bh or 358 socom.

The only deer I ever shot with a .45-70 was a 150-yard high lung shot that resulted in 400 yards of tracking with no blood until the last 10 feet. I was using the factory 350-grain JHP. The bullet did exit. Fortunately, the ground was very wet and I could follow his tracks. I was not impressed with any aspect of that kill. I like the old M1886 as a classic firearm, but I will probably never hunt with it again. I would take my Sako .243 10/10 times given the choice between the two.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Shraggs]

It’s really hard for me to recommend you change from the 243 for whitetail. But, I get that sometimes more bigger is more better, even if it’s not super practical. I’m still finishing up a 35 Whelen build myself.

If you want to keep your short action and get a medium bore thumper, go 338 Federal. (If you dont' mind new mags and swapping the bolt stop, then 35 Whelen). The 358 in a short barrel is going to be pretty slow. So is the 338, but slightly less so. Source your brass and dies before getting the barrel. There are far more practical choices (243, 308), but who cares? Build something different.

ETA: If you do go for a thumper in a lightweight Tikka, replacing at least the recoil pad if not the stock is highly recommended. My Whelen kicks aplenty and it weighs over 9 pounds in a Boyd's hardwood stock.

My 358 load is pushing 200 gr HH at 2670. Relatively speaking this is not slow.

My main hunting rifles are 223 and 6 cm with match type bullets. The 243 is the way…

But my 358 in a lever is a retro cool thumper that I really love in certain circumstances.

 

[199p]

I picked up a Tikka T3x 243win youth last year with the intention of pulling the barrel and rechambering in something.

I’ve been struggling with what that new cartridge would be. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the purpose of this rifle? I’ve narrowed it down to a short barreled lightweight brush stalker running heavies for whitetail. Looking for a good chance for bang flops.

I’ve tossed around the 308win running 200-220s, 358win and even the 450 BM as options.

I have a 30cal can but wouldn’t be opposed to a larger one down the road. I do reload so ammo selection isn’t a worry. Bullet selection could be.

The 358win is winning the fight so far. Thoughts?

if your wating a 308 just order a t3 superlite in 308, cut suppress and drop it in desired stock

 

[z987k]

Recoil from a 358 in a light hunting rifle can be a bit buckish it's true but you are not going to use it for long strings at the bench. When shooting at game I never notice recoil, hardly notice muzzle blast. The main reason I say if I were doing it now is that .338 diameter bullets do have slightly higher bC numbers but more choices in both factory ammo and aftermarket bullet choices. A Speer Hotcor 200 gr. Bullet has a BC of .426 and can be pushed faster than 2600 fps. This at least matches the famous 77 gr. TMK in a 223. I see 1800 fps or better out to 400 yards and a trajectory that is well within reason.

Run that again with the 200gr 338 apex with a g1 of .535 at 2650 and it really stretches the 338 fed out there.

I’m to the point between 338 fed and 358win. Still leaning toward 358 but not sure yet. This rifle is a 100yd brush stalker not brush buster. I like the tikka stock with a limb saver on it.

100y and no more? 375 raptor. With makers bullets.
Or 338-06 with the 160ttsx doing 3250.
Velocity and a bigger hole.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

The only bang+flops I have ever seen that were NOT CNS hits, were done with high velocity (north of 3k FPS). Never once seen a slow+heavy bullet put one down in it's tracks without hitting the spine or brain. My wife's old 270WSM shooting 130 Accubonds at 3390 FPS muzzle velocity, my 30-06 with 150s at 3125 FPS, that kind of thing, have dropped some without a CNS hit.

So, if you want a slow heavy bullet that will go through like a drill bit and keep going, that's the opposite of a gun you can expect to bang-flop anything outside of CNS shots.

 

[Bluefish]

The only deer I ever shot with a .45-70 was a 150-yard high lung shot that resulted in 400 yards of tracking with no blood until the last 10 feet. I was using the factory 350-grain JHP. The bullet did exit. Fortunately, the ground was very wet and I could follow his tracks. I was not impressed with any aspect of that kill. I like the old M1886 as a classic firearm, but I will probably never hunt with it again. I would take my Sako .243 10/10 times given the choice between the two.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

That’s almost the exact opposite of what I experienced. Of the two deer I have used a 500g maker sub, deer 1 went 5 yards and there was chunks of lung on the ground where the deer got hit. Deer 2 went maybe 15 yards even though I hit it low in the lungs. Really like the terminal effects, but I have been hunting a field this last year and the drop past 100 makes ranging critical.

 

[FLS]

It’s not a 358, but I’ve killed a bunch of deer, with a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. Paper ballistics are underwhelming, but in reality it’s a thumper. 200 grain round nose just plows right on thru from about any angle destroying everything in it path. Old school cool.
That said , a short barreled, suppressed 308 is really handy hunting rifle. It will do everything you’re asking and ammo is everywhere.

 

[Mike Islander]

I picked up a Tikka T3x 243win youth last year with the intention of pulling the barrel and rechambering in something.

I’ve been struggling with what that new cartridge would be. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the purpose of this rifle? I’ve narrowed it down to a short barreled lightweight brush stalker running heavies for whitetail. Looking for a good chance for bang flops.

I’ve tossed around the 308win running 200-220s, 358win and even the 450 BM as options.

I have a 30cal can but wouldn’t be opposed to a larger one down the road. I do reload so ammo selection isn’t a worry. Bullet selection could be.

The 358win is winning the fight so far. Thoughts?

Thoughts? "Struggling" is not a word I would ever expect to be used in the context of choosing a cartridge for hunting.

No need to limit a shorty rifle so much. Their good to 500+ yards. 358 has a limited range of factory loads. 7 choices on Midway USA, versus 116 6.5 CM and 214 308 selections.

 

[wesfromky]

If you want something bigger bore, but short range, then you should look at .350 legend. Lowish recoil, lots of factory ammo, lots of options for rifles, including tikka. Can run a number of 9mm suppressors on it, just have to verify it will support it. Kills deer just fine within it's range limits.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Sure just like you want whats left of your bullet to look like lead and jacket material confetti. And by the way I have killed a lot of animals quickly with regular cup and core hunting bullets.

That is the crux of the disagreement. I honestly don't care one bit what my bullet looks like when it is done. I don't "want" anything other than the animal I am shooting at dead as quickly as possible. In order to do that I "want" 1) the bullet to go where I aim it and 2) a wound channel as large as possible. What the bullet looks like when it is done is irrelevant to my "wants".

 

[Schmo]

I’m curious why the OP is going directly away from what he said he wanted? He said he wanted as many bang-flops as possible. Slow and heavy is not the way to get there. His 243 with 95 NBT is going to give as many bang flops as anything larger. Now if he just wants a big rifle, that’s cool. But he should realize that his large rifle is only going to be the same, or longer, time to incapacitation.

 

[KenLee]

I had a light 358 Browning BLR. Have to say it was a bang flop special that penetrated well from any angle and didn't destroy a lot of meat doing so. I foolishly traded it off but built a reasonably light 35 Whelen. It also made a great rifle. Nothing shot with either rifle to include some big hogs went more than 30 yards. What few that actually moved much after being hit. However today using a short action I would make it a 338 Federal. Seems like it runs a little faster than the 358 and plenty of good bullets out there for it. One of the things I really like about the bigger bullets is the lack of lead fragments in the meat and edible organs.

I'd rather use 7mm-08 or 308 BLR to get back in the scope quicker.
Didn't much care for the 358 with BLR hockey puck pad.

 

[KenLee]

I'd use the 243 with Hornady SSTs, Bergers or possibly even a varmint bullet. Neck shoot them and you'll have a cartwheel bang flop.

Neck shooting is hard when they are running wide ass open