Struggling to see the point of 6.5's

[BRTreedogs]

I hunt the west every year. In fact that's primarily where I use my rifles anymore. Local stuff gets the bow.

BC on that 150 TTSX is 0.42, which at 2960 keeps it above 2200 fps., where I normally hunt, out to over 500 yards. I'm not keen on shots beyond 400, and at that range the bullet is still traveling 2400 fps.

I'm not talk impact velocity as much as the arc of the bullet.
Id have to pull up a calculator to talk intelligently but alot of time the is a large gap in the amount of bullet drop at 500
Your range has to be more spot on and there is simply more margin for error.

Part of ballistics for me is making easier to place a pin point shot.

 

[Newtosavage]

I'm not talk impact velocity as much as the arc of the bullet.
Id have to pull up a calculator to talk intelligently but alot of time the is a large gap in the amount of bullet drop at 500
Your range has to be more spot on and there is simply more margin for error.

Part of ballistics for me is making easier to place a pin point shot.

basically 2" of difference at 500 yards between this .308 load I have and a 6.5 PRC shooting 143's.

I might have just talked myself out of the PRC. LOL

It's the 6.5 components that has my interest. It's frustrating not being able to find the 7mm bullets I want when I want them.

 

[JGRaider]

Looking at Hodgdons load data, I’m only seeing 2900 with 140’s. I guess I was expecting more. A lot of guys are pushing that with 140’s from 7-08’s and my .284 Wins did better than that without having to go to a magnum bolt head. That’s why I say I was surprised.

So my decision now is whether to have this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC or just build another .284 Win

If you're relying on published load data you're completely missing reality.

 

[WeiserBucks]

What load data are you looking at?

My chronograph and 1000 yard targets.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I said I didn't like reloading?

I have a .308 that will do anything I need for elk sized game on down. It's also very accurate and 6 lbs. 12 oz. scoped. So if I wanted just one gun, I've found it.

Just looking for something "different" to have as a backup to that. 7mm components clearly seem to be getting less available and less popular. I'd like to be able to go in to my local sporting goods store and pick up a box of bullets like I used to, but these days all they have are 6.5's and .308 bullets on the shelf.

Regardless, something different than my .308 or the 7-08's I've used for years that would fill the role of a backup gun when I travel to hunt. That's what I'm after.

Right now, rechambering to 6.5 PRC is my thought. I really like this barrel but the CM is just meh.

Copy. Another post stated they loathed reloading. Mix up, but to my credit I was working an overnight and little sleep. LOL

 

[Shō[t]gun]

If you don't care about the recoil difference, you don't like shooting animals past 400y, you only want to shoot mono's, and you're looking at book max charges as gospel, then no wonder you're struggling to see the point when you're handicapping or disregarding everything it has going for it. If you're keeping your ranges shorter than 500y then the advantages of the 6.5 caliber are irrelevant unless you get a gassed up monster like a 26 nosler or 6.5-300 to make up KE with velocity. The "ah-ha" moment doesn't show up till about 700y.

 

[fwafwow]

debatably funny Zac Efron meme deleted because @fngTony posted in another thread "I wasn't joking" within seconds of said meme showing up on this thread.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

6.5 CM gets a lot hype. I'm not bashing 6.5 CM it's just another cartridge to explore IMO. However, when I first investigated the CM, due to all the hype, I wasn't overwhelmed by the ballistics and too didn't get it. Doesn't mean it's a bad cartridge I was just expecting a hotter cartridge based on all the love. Agree, the advantage is definitely > 500 yards due to the BC. I think it's great for deer/antelope. Probably fine for elk but wouldn't be my first choice .

 

[fngTony]

debatably funny Zac Efron meme deleted because @fngTony posted in another thread "I wasn't joking" within seconds of said meme showing up on this thread.

I’ll get to that later

 

[Overdrive]

I opted for the 6.5-300 bee, can't get those velocities from any other 6.5 out there. 130 scirocco @ 3400fps.

 

[nobody]

I'm not going to say anything here that hasn't already been said. I also believe, oftentimes, people ask questions looking for information to corroborate a conclusion they've already come to. But that's a different discussion for a different day.

IMO, what the 6.5's (specifically the creedmoor) bring to the table is incredible balancing of many different aspects of cartridge development.

1. It was designed, from the ground up, specifically to work with heavy for caliber bullets with high ballistic coefficient and high sectional density. There was already a "6.5" on the market (the .260 Rem), but it wasn't designed specifically to do this from day one. It was twisted wrong, and the case length and shape mean you have to eek into your powder space in order to seat the Heavy for Caliber bullets deeper than is ideal. The Creedmoor fixed some issues that the .260 didn't.

2. It's case shape was designed around the same principles, and the straight wall and 30 degree shoulder help to mitigate issues with case "growth" and simplify reloading processes. I've heard @Formidilosus say he doesn't trim his 6.5 brass, and it's the case design that means it's safe to do so. It does eventually grow, but not at the rate of a 7 rem mag or 280 or 270.

3. It's a lower recoiling round for it's trajectory. I think it's a common misconception that the 6.5 Creedmoor has a laser-beam like trajectory, and it just doesn't. The rifle I packed in colorado has a MV of 2630 FPS, and at 1000 yards (with a 100 yard zero), I drop about 8 mils. It's not a missile strike at all. My brother shoots a Weatherby Vanguard .270 Winchester that shoots Hornady factory Superformance BLISTERINGLY fast (about 3200 FPS), and he's only got about 6.5 mils of drop at 1k. However, our energy (per the Shooter App) at 1k is within 20 ft-lbs of eachother, and our wind drift is different by about .3 MILS, 10 MPH wind at 90 degrees relative to bullet flight path (advantage 6.5). The difference is the 270, moving almost 600 FPS faster, recoils considerably more to reach those numbers. I'm not talking painful recoil, I'm talking the type of recoil that doesn't move you a mile off target when shooting from a bag or off a pack. People talk about recoil as if it's a painful thing, and at points it can be (6 LB 300 Win Mag, for example). Personally, I'm with you OP, the -06 is where I feel I start to feel a really sharp dropoff in my ability to handle the rifle when it comes to recoil. HOWEVER, I had a .308 (Browning A Bolt II) for awhile and was pushing the 168 AMAX at about 2850 FPS, and even though it didn't hurt, it moved me off target significantly more than my 6.5 Creedmoors do (I've got 3 of them now) and was significantly more difficult to control. Again, not painful, just a significant increase in overall movemement. For their recoil and muzzle velocity, my creeds are extremely efficient and other rounds have to either be loaded hotter or be throated longer or twisted tighter in order to keep up. Again, they were designed from the ground up with those things already in mind.

Bottom line, the 6.5 Creedmoor didn't do any ONE thing that anything else on the market didn't already do when it was released. But it gave us a balanced combination of all those attributes (and many others) that no cartridge had before, and taught us that cartridges could actually be designed properly for inherent accuracy. The 6.5 PRC does the same thing but on a "hotter" level. Lots of the other modern 6.5's apply these same principles in order to increase performance marginally, but then you start getting into issues with barrel life and such. It's not that the 6.5's are necessarily anything magical in and of themselves, it's that several of them have been designed in modern times for our modern understanding of ballistics and performance.

I would argue that some, like the 6.5-300 Weatherby or the 26 Nosler, are just downright stupid and pointless. But that's more a dig on the cartridge design than the 6.5mm bore diameter.

Can you push a 180 GR. ELDM from a 280 AI or a 7 Rem Mag if you're a proficient handloader? How about a 230 Grain ATIP from a 300 Win Mag or a 308? Absolutely, without question. But were those cartridges designed, from the ground up, to do that? Nope, not even a little bit.

The 6.5's aren't magical, they just were the bore diameter that Hornady chose to start with when we started into this renaissance of modern ballistics. If they had come out with the 25 Creedmoor or the 7 Creedmoor at the time, you'd have probably started a thread about "What's magic about the 25's" or something. The things companies learned in developing and designing and building rounds like the 6.5 Creedmoor and PRC lead to rounds like the 300 PRC (applies all the same relative balance points to a cartridge that smears the 300 Win Mag across the pavement), the 6.8 Western, the 7 PRC, and I'm sure many more to come.

Bottom line, 6.5 isn't special in and of itself. The modern cartridges they tend to adorn are what's special.

But hey, I'm just some random guy on the internet...

 

[Megalodon]

I'm really looking for a reason to keep this 6.5 CM barrel, or even to have it rechambered to 6.5 PRC.

I'm confused now. Are you looking to be convinced or not. Seems like you're confused also.


My 6.5 PRC pushes 127 LRX at 3150.

 

[Billy Goat]

I also believe, oftentimes, people ask questions looking for information to corroborate a conclusion they've already come to.

It's called confirmation bias. It's very real, I think it's almost human nature.


I catch myself in it, I just try to be observant of it and keep my mind open. Recognizing that even tho I know I'm correct 99% of the time, there's still that 1%.
Now where are those damn laughy face things.


Bottom line is inside of 450-500 there's a whole lot of stuff that doesn't really do anything different than anything else. I mean, unless we going to compare the 30/30 to a 308, and it still comes down to bullets not so much caliber or cartridge.

 

[BjornF16]

It's called confirmation bias. It's very real, I think it's almost human nature.


I catch myself in it, I just try to be observant of it and keep my mind open. Recognizing that even tho I know I'm correct 99% of the time, there's still that 1%.
Now where are those damn laughy face things.

 

[Billy Goat]

You passed the I actually read all of a post exam.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I hate having to compare things in my mind in order to make a decision on what optic, rifle, shelter etc. to take for a certain hunt.

Of course I’ll do what Newtosavage does and obsess over things in the off season, but then try to get past that stage fairly quickly and choose one solution to stick with.

If I like something and the performance is optimal for what I need it to do, I could care less how it then compares to something else.

I want a rifle that can kill sheep to 700 yards at 4k ft.
A 21” Fieldcraft 6.5 CM shooting factory 127 LRX at 2790 fps is still a bit over 1800 fps at that distance.
Recoil is minimal and I can spot my impacts.

It’s going to be an endless debate wether something similar to a 6.5 is better or worse. If you like the characteristics that a 6.5 brings, then go with it if it fulfills its intended purpose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rick M.]

I'm struggling with choosing between the .264 and the .284 myself at the moment. I am really on the fence between the 6.5 CM, 7mm-08, and .280 AI for my next rifle / handloading project.

I'm planning to use either Barnes or Hammer bullets (I prefer lead-free). From what I'm seeing, at the lighter weight projectiles (which seem to be preferred when using copper / mono), the .264 bullets seem to have better BC and SD values. I'd have to go all the way up to the 168g LRX (.284) with Barnes before surpassing the SD and BC of the 127g LRX (.264). Now, I'm not too concerned with the BC because I plan on keeping my shots 450 and in.

My goal is to get as close as I can to 3k MV with a non-magnum out of a 22" barrel. I don't think the CM can do it, the 7mm-08 comes close, and the .280 AI can easily do it with the lighter bullets (but not the 168 grain and up class of bullets).

I love the .280 AI for the cool factor as well, and am not really interested in the upcoming 7 PRC or 7 Rem Mag.

I don't believe a game animal will notice the difference between a .260 SD bullet and a .248 SD bullet, but it still factors in.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I don’t have a lot to add to this discussion that hasn’t already been posted, but I will add this.

A lot of folks have posted about BC, but as has been mentioned numerous times, BC isn’t that big of a deal inside of 500 yards. Sectional density (SD) however, plays a very large role in how the bullet performs once it gets to the target. One of the main reasons why the 6.5 seems to punch above its weight on game animals is because most 6.5 bullets are in the sweet spot for SD.

 

[Shadow Illude]

Looking at Hodgdons load data, I’m only seeing 2900 with 140’s. I guess I was expecting more. A lot of guys are pushing that with 140’s from 7-08’s and my .284 Wins did better than that without having to go to a magnum bolt head. That’s why I say I was surprised.

So my decision now is whether to have this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC or just build another .284 Win

Looking at Hodgdons load data, I’m only seeing 2900 with 140’s. I guess I was expecting more. A lot of guys are pushing that with 140’s from 7-08’s and my .284 Wins did better than that without having to go to a magnum bolt head. That’s why I say I was surprised.

So my decision now is whether to have this barrel rechambered to 6.5 PRC or just build another .284 Win

You are most certainly not looking at all the data. And Hodgdon doesn’t list some of the powders that will perform better in the cartridge.

 

[grfox92]

Man, nothing sets Rokslide on fire like a guy just questioning the greatness of the mighty 6.5.

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